National League Rugby Discussion Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > The Championship
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Champ clubs reject Prem 2 franchise model
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Champ clubs reject Prem 2 franchise model

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
Author
Message
Paul10 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 24 Mar 2023
Location: Milton Keynes
Status: Offline
Points: 321
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 15:51
I'm at a Level 7 club.

Prem, Champ, Nat 1 doesn't make a lot of difference to us as a club. 
Saints, Blues and Ampthill are local to us (Bletchley, so no great rugby history in the area).
If England go well, that's good news. (4 new U14s players during the RWC).


At this recreational level, the volunteers on the committee have enough to do without this.
Back to Top
OldNick View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 20 May 2007
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 3414
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 18:07
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

At this recreational level, the volunteers on the committee have enough to do without this.

Don't worry Paul, as English rugby collapses to 20  bankrupt franchises, who don't even get a mention on TV  your volunteers won't have to do anything with their empty clubs except sell them for housing.
Back to Top
Paul10 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 24 Mar 2023
Location: Milton Keynes
Status: Offline
Points: 321
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 19:01
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

At this recreational level, the volunteers on the committee have enough to do without this.

Don't worry Paul, as English rugby collapses to 20  bankrupt franchises, who don't even get a mention on TV  your volunteers won't have to do anything with their empty clubs except sell them for housing.

If 100 letters is the target, I think that's a tall order. That's all.


Back to Top
Golden Jackal View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular
Avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2020
Location: E Anglia
Status: Offline
Points: 116
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Golden Jackal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 19:33
At this recreational level, the volunteers on the committee have enough to do without this.

And that Paul is why there will be no change...yes, it is tough to run a rugby club, especially with volunteers, but if we sit back and keep accepting what is poured down from Twickenham, then trust me it is only going to get worse.
This issue is not just about the Championship...

Back to Top
Runitback View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 22 Sep 2014
Location: North
Status: Offline
Points: 1201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 20:05
Its all very well rejecting the Franchise model, which I agree with , but I believe last Friday LS v Ampthill included 22 players from Sarries and Quins!!!! Championship clubs should be using their own players. That would then stop the Prem clubs stockpiling talent.  Rugby should be a level playing field below the Prem and clubs success being due to producing their own talent! 
Run with it
Back to Top
Runitback View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 22 Sep 2014
Location: North
Status: Offline
Points: 1201
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2023 at 20:06
As in I agree with rejecting the Franchise route!
Run with it
Back to Top
Breakdown View Drop Down
Academy player
Academy player


Joined: 11 Apr 2023
Location: SW London
Status: Offline
Points: 29
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breakdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 08:37

Couldn't agree more. The unspoken part of all this is that from the Premiership's point of view, this is all about what to do with those young, spare players.

 

It's as if the Prem 10 have been ordered to reduce their playing staffs by some outside body in order to achieve financial viability, so they have gone away and thought about how they can do that without losing the large playing pool they need to maintain quality during the rest periods their first 30-45 players need.

 

It's as if they thought, well, if we can get a league below us that is matched to our clubs, like Triple-A baseball, a farm league, then we can offload those youngsters who aren't really good enough to play at Championship level but they will stay part of the game.

 

It's as if they thought, well, the only thing that matters is the survival of our clubs, so if in the process clubs like London Scottish are hollowed out so they play 30+ loan players in a season, so their supporters don't know who is in the team from one week to the next, so the "actual" Scottish players don't know when they will next play in their favoured position, then no big deal because only Prem clubs matter.

 

It's as if the Prem 10 thought, well, we can't have clubs going down out of this second tier or the quality of gametime for our farmed players will go down and we certainly can't have the zombies  coming up into our league because how could you possibly have a farm club play the farmers without a conflict of interest? So of course it's a franchise, invite-only, tender-process, ring-fence, monopoly protection. Hoorah.

 

It's as if they thought, maybe the existing Tier 2 clubs won't want to sell their souls, but, hey, what about those three Prem clubs that went bust? They'll be grateful for a franchise lifeline, so we can keep the Tier 2 clubs who refuse to play Farmball out of P2 and replace them with "Phoenixes" (never mind the example of moral hazard that sets to the next Old Elthamians or the next Henley) a few wannabes from Nat 1 with no money and crowds of 500 and maybe a university team or some academies.

 

It's as if they thought all that and then said to the RFU: "This will fix the game." And the RFU said: "My God you're right - have £268m for the first four years and whatever we can afford for the next four."

 

And then it's as if some other people who actually give a damn about sport, about fairness, about something other than money, decided: "Sod that. Enough is enough."

 

(Incidentally, I don't think Ampthill want to go this way, but I'm not sure they can see an alternative. Nobody knows what London Scottish think, but they way they are behaving, I'm not sure it makes a lot of difference.)

Broken down. Beyond repair.
Back to Top
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4917
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 13:51
On the money Breakdown. Rugby was one of the most significant parts of my life from the age of 11.....in the last 10 years it has dropped down my priorities to settle some where close to feeding the birds in my garden. A reasonably regular routine but no longer essential and it is no biggee if I miss a few games .

The reason for my growing disenchantment is completely down to the senseless and iniquitous financial focus on the Premiership by a shameful governing body.

The game has been destroyed by those who are meant to protect it and the scandal is that they are either too stupid to recognise it or too disinterested to care. 
''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
Greg View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 30 Jan 2020
Location: Norfolk
Status: Offline
Points: 82
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 15:43
Big Eddie,
I beseech you to continue to feed the birds in your garden. Why should this important activity have been so badly devalued?
Remember, BE, what our Lord hath taught us, "Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them."
Conversely, the RFU soweth mayhem, reapeth discord, and gather a fortune into Twickenham and therewith purchase lots of gin and prawn mayonnaise sandwiches. Bad eggs, the lot of them. 

Back to Top
*Stalwart View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion


Joined: 15 Oct 2022
Location: Penzance
Status: Offline
Points: 232
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 15:53
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

On the money Breakdown. Rugby was one of the most significant parts of my life from the age of 11.....in the last 10 years it has dropped down my priorities to settle some where close to feeding the birds in my garden. A reasonably regular routine but no longer essential and it is no biggee if I miss a few games .

The reason for my growing disenchantment is completely down to the senseless and iniquitous financial focus on the Premiership by a shameful governing body.

The game has been destroyed by those who are meant to protect it and the scandal is that they are either too stupid to recognise it or too disinterested to care. 

I feel your pain, but my take is different. I will support my club through thick and thin, despite the bleddy RFU. I'm very lucky here in Penzance. We have a top class professional team who have come up through the leagues over the past 20+ years and who give us first class entertainment. We also have The Pirates Amateurs, which is proper, old school local rugby with the squad made up of, almost elusively, players who are graduates of our brilliant mini/junior/colts sections. I love watching both of these teams and do whatever I can to support them. 
*Stalwart
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5077
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Nov 2023 at 23:50
Could we not abolish loan players other than for the whole season?
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
The Blues View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4700
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 08:22
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Could we not abolish loan players other than for the whole season?

Issue is when a club gets a lot of injuries in one position they often need to loan a player from elsewhere.
Back to Top
Big Eddie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4917
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 08:22
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Could we not abolish loan players other than for the whole season?

Caldy have only one loan player (who is from Sale Sharks) and I understand he trains mid week with Caldy and he appears to be semi permanent . For the last couple of seasons Caldy has had between 2 and 4 loan players with at least one of those players (Elliot Gourlay) playing for the entirety of both seasons.

The togetherness of the Caldy Squad, which comprises some 45 players who make up Caldy's 1st xv and 2nd xv is fundamental to the club. A player who comes on loan for an entire season, or at least a long run of games becomes a Raver, with all that entails, and is recognised and enjoyed by his fellow Ravers and the Caldy supporters. 

WOLWAOTB


''The future isn't what it used to be''
Back to Top
Se7en View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Apr 2023
Location: Reading
Status: Offline
Points: 432
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Se7en Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 10:32
Big Eddie, this is something that I have admired with Caldy, and was noticeable when the Ravers went on that long winning streak to claim the Nat 1 title in 21/22. Aside from Gourlay, and perhaps scrum half Nye Thomas, both from the Sharks, I can't think of another loan player that you had that season. There certainly seemed to be a real togetherness about your squad that season. Likewise, when Cambridge pipped Rams to the Nat 1 title last season, I don't recall them bringing in a bus load of loan players, and credit to them for that.

I believe the single biggest factor in avoiding a reliance on loanees is by having a strong 2nd and even 3rd XV, training as one senior squad which allows for far greater strength in depth and cohesion. As and when injuries occur, which they always will, there is less temptation to parachute in a loan player for a game here and there, but rather giving those lads who have may have played understudy to a starting player the chance they deserve. This can only be a good thing in the long run.

I do accept that at Champ level, the step up in quality between 1st and 2nd XV players may be that bit bigger and thus justifies bringing in a loan player from a Prem or other Champ club as injury cover. 

However, I have noticed recently that there has been an increase in this trend with some Nat 1 clubs which, whilst exciting to watch the quality that these players bring, goes slightly against the grain in my mind given the supposed semi-pro nature of Nat 1. From what I can see, it is indeed those clubs who do not field a 2nd and 3rd XV regularly, and at Level 4 or 5 standard, that resort to loan players.

I do of course concede that within the rules clubs are quite entitled to field a certain number of DR/loan players, and not doing anything wrong, I just have my doubts over the sustainability and sportsmanship of this approach. Time will tell as another intriguing Champ and Nat 1 season develops.
Back to Top
WEvans View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 08 Dec 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 1250
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 11:59
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

....

The game has been destroyed by those who are meant to protect it and the scandal is that they are either too stupid to recognise it or too disinterested to care. 

Or too well paid Eddie.

I totally agree with your sentiments which is why I have always said National League downwards is club rugby at its very best and without wishing any ill-will to you or the good folk at Caldy the sooner you return to the National League the better. These clubs have been all but abandoned by the RFU but are generally well run by those who understand how to live within their means and who also appreciate the value of rugby clubs to the community. 

My other long-held wish (which I appreciate is extreme) is for several more Premiership clubs to go bust causing professional rugby in this country to implode. It is the only way in my opinion that we will be able to build any form of sustainable top-level rugby. And for the usual Premiership club apologist no I don't give a toss about the national team at the moment. 
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5077
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 14:15
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Could we not abolish loan players other than for the whole season?

Issue is when a club gets a lot of injuries in one position they often need to loan a player from elsewhere.

From 2nd or 3rd XV Wink
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5077
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 14:44
Originally posted by Se7en Se7en wrote:


I do of course concede that within the rules clubs are quite entitled to field a certain number of DR/loan players, and not doing anything wrong, I just have my doubts over the sustainability and sportsmanship of this approach. Time will tell as another intriguing Champ and Nat 1 season develops.

I don't think Cambridge have overly relied on loan players and certainly not last season.

With Sale's parlous state in National 1, I await their need for Sharks.
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5077
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 15:01
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:


With Sale's parlous state in National 1, I await their need for Sharks.

Having said that it will be interesting to see the Cambridge game against London Scottish who, I believe, fielded a number of loan players last season.

 Surely, loan players must undermine the members of the core squad unless you either don't have a core squad or genuinely don't have injury cover.
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 10670
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 15:15
Cambridge have used more short term loans this season, as we have had a bit of an injury crisis.
We were down to one fit tight head, one fit lock, one fit scrum-half and one fit full back.

We also have Jamie Benson on season long loan while he studies at the university.
Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
The Blues View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 05 Aug 2007
Status: Offline
Points: 4700
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2023 at 19:34
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Could we not abolish loan players other than for the whole season?

Issue is when a club gets a lot of injuries in one position they often need to loan a player from elsewhere.

From 2nd or 3rd XV Wink

When it gets to this level it becomes dangerous or you need an Ealing squad.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.