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Premier league 2

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tigerburnie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Premier league 2
    Posted: 13 Nov 2023 at 15:47
ChrisJonesPress

“Steve Diamond has joined the RFU Prem 2 working group in an advisory capacity. Diamond has previously produced a road map for possibly turning the Championship into Prem 2 ”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 07:38
And he has a vested interest in fast-tracking at least one of the 'fallen giants' back into the second tier.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 10:07
Unless he's joined with London Irish, I doubt it, the administrators won't let him anywhere near Worcester.
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SK 88 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 10:16
It's nothing to do with the administrators now.

Christopher Holland owns the long lease on the stadium & the IP.  He owes the administrators money but that is a separate thing as far as I can work out.

If Diamond's group bought those rights off Holland (say for the settlement of the amount owed to the administrator) it would be up to them/the RFU to negotiate the return of a team to Sixways. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 12:49
Originally posted by SK 88 SK 88 wrote:

It's nothing to do with the administrators now.

Christopher Holland owns the long lease on the stadium & the IP.  He owes the administrators money but that is a separate thing as far as I can work out.

If Diamond's group bought those rights off Holland (say for the settlement of the amount owed to the administrator) it would be up to them/the RFU to negotiate the return of a team to Sixways. 

Exactly. The administrators have accepted a bid and if the money is paid then whoever is involved has absolutely nothing to do with them. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 14:54
Were the administrators doing their job to get paid by the best candidate for the creditors, they would be talking to anyone, not sat on their @rse taking their cut and not really caring about anyone.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 20:46
Why does the appointment of Steve Diamond not fill me with joy? 
Increasingly I am drawn to the conclusion that Prem 2 (if it ever comes to be) will be open to franchises rather than those clubs who currently merit a place through their position in the Championship.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 22:00
The original talk was of three franchises in Brum, Kent and Portsmouth areas, can't see any of them ever getting off the ground, indeed I cannot see where Wasps, Worcester(both seemingly owned by the same bloke) or Irish are going to find investors. Wasps had a ground and a team and couldn't find an investor, ditto Irish, sort of gives you an idea of the mountain that requires climbing.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2023 at 22:20
I suspect, the well-heeled Championship clubs will apply and some might be accepted after detailed scrutiny

I am sure Wasps and Worcester would try to apply, and while I am not sure that they are capable of making a sustainable bid, but they might not get the same scrutiny.

My guess is that they will solicit bids from clubs from other codes, to run a RU side. 
Theoretically, if you have the facilities, running a second team should be profitable, as you sweat your assets. But somehow, it does not seem to work. Leeds and Quins both had cross code set-ups, and neither really worked.

A fully professional rugby side is some 40 players, plus say five coaches and three medics, even if you borrow S&C staff from the parent, so you are not going to have much change from £3m just for wages and NI contributions.

Operational costs would be on top of that.

So you are either going to need TV money, significant sponsorship, a sugar daddy or some combination of the three.

It does not sound like an obvious investment to me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 12:43
Now let's see. The Premiership is a basket case with every club reliant on a sugar-daddy of some form or another to survive. So now they are looking at forming Premiership 2. Bound to be a winner isn't it?

The sooner the whole lot implodes the better for English rugby and if Premiership 2 is going to cause it then bring it on!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 12:48
Has anyone yet explained what benefits a Premier 2 would bring to the whole game rather than just enrich another set of clubs to the detriment of the majority? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 13:47
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Now let's see. The Premiership is a basket case with every club reliant on a sugar-daddy of some form or another to survive. So now they are looking at forming Premiership 2. Bound to be a winner isn't it?

The sooner the whole lot implodes the better for English rugby and if Premiership 2 is going to cause it then bring it on!

You have no wish for a competitive National team then?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 14:28
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

I suspect, the well-heeled Championship clubs will apply and some might be accepted after detailed scrutiny

I am sure Wasps and Worcester would try to apply, and while I am not sure that they are capable of making a sustainable bid, but they might not get the same scrutiny.

My guess is that they will solicit bids from clubs from other codes, to run a RU side. 
Theoretically, if you have the facilities, running a second team should be profitable, as you sweat your assets. But somehow, it does not seem to work. Leeds and Quins both had cross code set-ups, and neither really worked.

A fully professional rugby side is some 40 players, plus say five coaches and three medics, even if you borrow S&C staff from the parent, so you are not going to have much change from £3m just for wages and NI contributions.

Operational costs would be on top of that.

So you are either going to need TV money, significant sponsorship, a sugar daddy or some combination of the three.

It does not sound like an obvious investment to me.

I doubt they will do that to be honest, I cannot think of it working successfully, anywhere.

Think your costs are if anything conservative.

Regarding value investment:  Were the deal to be permanent ring fencing of the professional game, similar to the Football league in the 1890s for instance, the position within the league would have an inherent value and lots of private venture sports leagues are attractive stores of value for wealthy people.  From an obvious perspective if you are mega wealthy sports clubs are decent dodges from inheritance tax, particularly at the level of value we're theoretically talking about here.

Contrary to popular narrative Rugby union has seen consistent growth of income, and rugby union is a popular spectator sport with a track record of building fan bases in the last 25 years.

Where the popular narrative is correct is that it has struggled to control its costs.  What we're not privy to is the whole detail in this proposal which might give new owners reason to be optimistic. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 14:29
When did we last have one of those?
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tigerburnie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 15:13
One could say in their last two games, beat Argentina to be third in the World and lost by a point to the current World Champions, but I wouldn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kempstonblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 17:29
How many well heeled clubs are in the Championship?
The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 18:34
Ealing, 
Probably Doncaster, who do appear to have a stadium suitable for the Premiership.

I would have said Jersey, but they were apparently spending more than they earned.

Possibly Pirates, Coventry, and Bedford who at least have grounds with large stands and fans to fill them.

Which, is why I think they need to find franchises to fill the league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 19:20
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Ealing, 
Probably Doncaster, who do appear to have a stadium suitable for the Premiership.

I would have said Jersey, but they were apparently spending more than they earned.

Possibly Pirates, Coventry, and Bedford who at least have grounds with large stands and fans to fill them.

Which, is why I think they need to find franchises to fill the league.


Spending more than you earn is endemic in most rugby clubs. At professional level the wage bill is way above the income, thus clubs need a sugar daddy to fund the largesse.

Edited by Raider999 - 15 Nov 2023 at 19:21
RAID ON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Nov 2023 at 19:45
How about getting the Premiership back up to 12 'professional' teams and making everything below them part of the 'amatuer' National leagues. Probably simpler and certainly more sustainable.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 07:53
Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

How about getting the Premiership back up to 12 'professional' teams and making everything below them part of the 'amatuer' National leagues. Probably simpler and certainly more sustainable.

I'd question whether it's realistic to have an entirely pro top tier and then entirely amateur tiers below that. Where will players be developed? Academy game and university sides would I guess be the answer, but the Championship, for all its flaws, has done that role ok...

and presumably setting up this '12 pro, the rest amateur' structure would involve an admission that there'd be no up/down movement, as the significant gulf that currently exists would become an unbridgeable chasm? Richmond and other p/t, largely amateur, sides have managed to cut it in the Champ in recent years, but in today's currency you'd be expecting sides to move from equivalent of 3rd tier to top tier = totally unrealistic IMHO
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