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Promotions and relegations.
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    Posted: 08 Dec 2022 at 12:07
With Wasps & Worcester both loosing their appeals against relegation to the Championship, their 'relegation' will mean 14 teams in that league.
Have the RFU given us any information as to what they intend to do with regards to Nat 1 promotion and, indeed, Championship relegation ?
Especially based on the reconstruction of the Nat 2 leagues this year and the promise to even out the amount of teams in all leagues ?
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Points: 1777 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2022 at 12:19
Well as usual it hasn't been thought through! We all know these 2 grossly miss-managed clubs should be starting at the bottom of the pyramid as "phoenix" clubs as many have had to do before them or at the very least "hook up" with their amateur cousins a few rungs up the ladder. Why are they a special case?
If they do take their place in the Championship and there is a "trickle down" set of relegations from Nat1 down then expect a revolt. 100 clubs required to propose a motion of "No confidence" and get the  existing rules exercised as above. You will find much discussion along these lines on several other threads and Camquin can probably tell you more than me. In fact he would make an excellent leader of this "revolt" 
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Points: 11578 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Dec 2022 at 12:37
It has been reported on here that there will be one team up and none down from the Championship - which will be a flexible size of up to 15.

But that was before SMT started talking about 10 team Premiership and including Championship teams in the premiership cup.

So, the real answer is we do not know, and cannot know until we know the position of Wasps and Worcester - and any knock on re-organisation.
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Points: 1456 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2022 at 11:43
Originally posted by hashtag hashtag wrote:

With Wasps & Worcester both loosing their appeals against relegation to the Championship, their 'relegation' will mean 14 teams in that league.
Have the RFU given us any information as to what they intend to do with regards to Nat 1 promotion and, indeed, Championship relegation ?
Especially based on the reconstruction of the Nat 2 leagues this year and the promise to even out the amount of teams in all leagues ?


I got as far as "Have the RFU given us any information" and then couldn't make out the rest through the tears of laughter.
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Points: 6483 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2022 at 12:52
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by hashtag hashtag wrote:

With Wasps & Worcester both loosing their appeals against relegation to the Championship, their 'relegation' will mean 14 teams in that league.
Have the RFU given us any information as to what they intend to do with regards to Nat 1 promotion and, indeed, Championship relegation ?
Especially based on the reconstruction of the Nat 2 leagues this year and the promise to even out the amount of teams in all leagues ?


I got as far as "Have the RFU given us any information" and then couldn't make out the rest through the tears of laughter.
Surely it'll be on their fabulously laid-out, informative, and easy to use website?
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Points: 11578 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Dec 2022 at 13:20
At the start of the season, when Regulation 6 Appendix 2 was written.

The premiership would go to 14, assuming the team winning the Championship met the ground  requirements - otherwise stay at 13.

The Championship would stay at 12. If the Prem goes to 14 there would be no relegation.

Nat 1, One team up, three down - unless the Championship side is saved.

All other leagues, one up and two down - except where a single league feeds the league above, when two go up.

According to reports - the plan is to reduce the premiership to 11/12 and expand the Championship to accommodate the phoenix entities. But I have not seen that in writing.


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Points: 923 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Dec 2022 at 09:59
I would suggest that if they are considering two premier leagues of 10 then Prem 2 will probably have entry criteria a bit lower then Prem 1 with perhaps ground criteria of 4000. 
The Prem/ Championship cup will be difficult to justify on the grounds that many of the top Championship clubs are now fill with fringe premiership players how can you see Harlequins Cup team play London Scottish which has 9 Harlequins fringe players who play for Harlequins in the cup?.
The 2 x 10 Prem Leagues would result in 5 championship clubs being relegated into Nat 1 with all the resulting relegations throughout the leagues , and this after the RFU said that the last restructuring would stand for a number of years. 
Any changes will come in line with the re negotiations for the PRL in 24/25. It proves the point than any restructuring should always start from the top down not from the bottom up.
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Points: 154 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParkBench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jan 2023 at 22:45
Rosslyn Park's most recent match programme stated that a structure had been presented at an NCA meeting by the RFU of the 2 x 10 Prem1 and Premier 2 with 3 regional leagues beneath it. I'm not clear whether that meant 3 x National 1 in the way we currently have 2 x National 2 or if they meant a National 1, 2 and 3.

Has anyone else heard anything from that meeting?

If the Prem2 league of 10 does happen it would be, as things stand, the debt-free Wasps, Bristol, Sale and 7 others. 

That would leave 5 great clubs to drop into National 1. 

I can't see how they make enough money for the Prem 2 seeing as they previously ignored the Championship.


* purely going on the current league position.
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Usual mess during the season as always with the goalposts constantly moving
Looks like we will go to the last game with uncertainty over the current one up 3 down scenario 
If you're not on the pitch you can't win the game
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There have been ideas floated but they are for 24/25 not for next season. Nothing firm, just ideas.
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Points: 1221 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 17:01
Well is there any certainty over what happens next year . . is it 1 up and 1 down from Championship?
Three down and three up from 3 NAt 2?
Run with it
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Points: 4253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 18:44
No team down from the Championship, 1 up. Not certain yet whether it is 2 or 3 down, however, if 1 goes up and 3 come up, only 2 go down.
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Points: 11578 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2023 at 22:39
So do we understand that the Championship will be a random number of sides, somewhere between 12 and 15 sides?
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Points: 4253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 07:34
For next season, yes! The big changes will be with the start of the new PGA in 2024/5.
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

So do we understand that the Championship will be a random number of sides, somewhere between 12 and 15 sides?

Yes, it was announced some time ago that preparations for next season in Champ involved different contingency numbers to cover the uncertainties such as:
  1. whether a team comes down from Prem
  2. whether a team goes up from Champ
  3. whether a team goes down from Champ to Nat 1
  4. whether Wasps will be in Champ
  5. whether Worcester will be in Champ
  6. whether a club comes up from Nat 1 to Champ
Frustratingly, we seem to be not much further forward; answers as I understand:
  1. Don't think so, highly unlikely
  2. Ealing not guaranteed to finish top, but favourites. If they do, they are threatening legal action (today's Times) if they are denied promotion
  3. Not sure
  4. Looks likely but not certain
  5. Looks less likely but also uncertain
  6. Yes, 1 club
Getting increasingly frustrating that the level of uncertainty is still so high with barely 3 months left of the season.
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Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

So do we understand that the Championship will be a random number of sides, somewhere between 12 and 15 sides?

Yes, it was announced some time ago that preparations for next season in Champ involved different contingency numbers to cover the uncertainties such as:
  1. whether a team comes down from Prem
  2. whether a team goes up from Champ
  3. whether a team goes down from Champ to Nat 1
  4. whether Wasps will be in Champ
  5. whether Worcester will be in Champ
  6. whether a club comes up from Nat 1 to Champ
Frustratingly, we seem to be not much further forward; answers as I understand:
  1. Don't think so, highly unlikely
  2. Ealing not guaranteed to finish top, but favourites. If they do, they are threatening legal action (today's Times) if they are denied promotion
  3. Not sure
  4. Looks likely but not certain
  5. Looks less likely but also uncertain
  6. Yes, 1 club
Getting increasingly frustrating that the level of uncertainty is still so high with barely 3 months left of the season.

Frustrations shared by everyone in rugby I fear, Tier 2 down.   
How in heck can clubs prepare for the new season when their respective divisions have yet to be decided! Bordering on farce, but is anyone surprised?  Am hearing that a deadline of January 31st is preferred for the chances of either Wasps or Worcester going into the Championship.  Hopefully this can be accomplished before the Six Nations jolly season starts. 
At the time when it is accepted that plans for squads are being shaped, finance plans are being shaped, how can you plan for the future?  It beggars belief that we are in this situation.  Formation of leagues? Planning for the future?  Budget setting must be very difficult. 
Players are looking for their futures to be settled.
And don’t get me started on the Academy situation in this area at the moment.   Think I will try and calm down a bit before I look under that stone again.
To all clubs, whatever league/division you may be in, hope you all get a game this weekend.   Weather permitting…..


Edited by PI003 - 19 Jan 2023 at 11:16
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

So do we understand that the Championship will be a random number of sides, somewhere between 12 and 15 sides?

I wouldn't put it beyond the RFU to start the season with 12 teams in the Championship and then add a few at suitable points during the season.
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Points: 4253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 16:05
I would expect Ealing to be allowed promotion, assuming they win the Championship, this season. That makes 12 in the Premiership and leaves 11 in the Championship. The winners of National 1 go up, making 12 in the Championship. Wasps and Worcester are seeking RFU clearance to start again with Wasps looking likely to be approved and Worcester not (their women's XV has broken its links with them). So my money is on 13 teams in the Championship and Worcester starting again wherever their amateur team is at the moment, like London Welsh. However ........
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As I understand, there are two bids for Worcester.
I do not believe either has been involved with Worcester RFC.

So if they do not get a Championship place, I am not sure if they have any interest in a long rebuild.

Wasps has been bought, but they have a name and badge, and they believe they have a place in the Championship, but very little else. I do not believe they have a ground or a coaching set up, let alone players.
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Points: 4253 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 23:14
Wasps have a training ground but nowhere to play. Worcester have somewhere to play. Do 2 and 2 = 5?
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