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Sell all the RFU's assets to the highest bidder |
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 09 Jan 2024 at 16:37 |
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Under another thread in Clubhouse Chat I posted a reply to Richard Lowther setting out how I would engage with all 2,000 Community Clubs to prompt action to cleanse the 'rotten borough' that is the RFU. I have reproduced my post in italics below: I believe that it is time to uncouple the 10 Premiership Clubs and the rest of the elite game from the 2,000 or so other Community Clubs. All 2,000 Community clubs own the RFU but most of the RFU's resources are directed to the elite game and the 10 Premiership clubs. The interests of the 10 Premiership shareholders and the elite game are vastly different and the RFU is no longer looking after the majority but only the tiny minority. Dissolve the RFU by selling all its assets and distributing the proceeds proportionately. The numbers and rationale make perfect sense As at June 23 Twickenham is sitting in the books of the RFU at a value of some £250m and the RFU has total net assets of £283m On the basis that I believe King Billy could sell out Twickenham to CVC and divert the cash to the elite game and the Premiership here is my alternative. 1. Member clubs put forward a resolution to sell Twickenham and the rest of the RFU's assets to the highest bidder - after settling creditors and on the basis it currently isn't a forced sale I expect the pot to be considerably north of £1 billion (10 x 2023 Operating profit of £103m before Rugby Investment) 2. The £1 billion is distributed proportionately to Member clubs - say £500k each 3. The Premiership clubs each get £500k as do the Community Clubs 4. King Billy and CVC look after the running of the Elite game and the Premiership. 5. The Community Clubs set up their own organisation which is likely to comprise the handful of people that the RFU previously employed to look after the Community Game This should happen because otherwise all the underlying assets that in reality belong to the Member clubs will be syphoned off to the uninvestable Premiership. In any corporate situation where the interests of the shareholders were so diverse......a sale of the assets or the body corporate would be an obvious solution. It is radical but having considered most of the other scenarios I have concluded that any other course of action would just be tinkering and would not address the fundamental issue. My concern if this radical course of action isn't undertaken is that the 2,000 or so Community Clubs will only see a few crumbs from King Billy's table as most of the resources are syphoned off to the Premiership and CVC. This way each Community Club will get its fair share of the RFU's net assets which will be an equitable outcome. This would go to a vote of the clubs at an AGM or a Special General Meeting....two thirds would need to approve so checks and balances in place This can be done and should be done! Edited by Big Eddie - 09 Jan 2024 at 16:46 |
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Berksrugby ![]() First XV squad ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Big Eddie, or should I say Comrade Red Eddie?! I'm only joking, but I have followed these forum topics around the RFU and their plans for Premiership 2 with interest.
No one can fault your clear passion and enthusiasm in opposing the way in which the RFU are running the game, but I'm afraid the suggestion you put forward here is absurd. Coups rarely end well, and there are far too many nuances between clubs in the Community Game (which are those at Level 6/7 and below in reality where no players are paid/enticed/sponsored etc) to simply divvy up £500k each. A fairly local example of this for me would be between Reading RFC, who run 3 men's teams (Levels 6 - 9), vets, ladies, minis to colts (boys and girls) mixed ability (special needs) and walking rugby teams who, under your plan, would receive the same amount as Berkshire Shire Hall, who play 20 yards away on a neighbouring pitch, but who are a seperate club and run a single men's team at Level 9. As you can see, the rugby landscape is so varied and I'm sure this example would be replicated all over the country. How do you actually determine who gets what and under what criteria? A logistical, and even ethical nightmare. I'm afraid that this is just one flaw of your vision that jumped out at me right away, before I even give thought to the remainder of the proposals. I see that you are a Caldy supporter, and so watch Championship rugby. As a passing thought, how do you imagine some of your opponents, the likes of Ealing or Doncaster, as aspiring Premiership-quality outfits, would take to your proposals. Given that they employ full time professional players and staff in the same way that the demonised Premiership clubs do. Again, where do you draw the line.
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FHLH ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5319 |
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I concur but there may be the residual contractual liability of losses from participating in 6N, WC and Autumn Internationals.
The other issue is that the armed forces regiments and Oxford/Cambridge are also members. It would cause chaos in the players market as the community game is levelled with equally funded player salaries and then has clubs going under once they've spent their pot of gold. Bonus is freedom from RFU and CVC. Perhaps also implementation of transfer fees up into good ship CVC Having said all this, it's a great idea.
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Richard Lowther ![]() Coaching staff ![]() ![]() Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6573 |
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Twickenham is the RFUs cash cow.
You don't sell your major money making assets without a plan to replace them cheaper but still maintain the same if not higher income. * If you were proposing selling to rebuild bigger and better ** elsewhere, outside of London, then I could understand your plan but as it stands it is pure madness. You would leave the future game having to hire, at great expense, future venues and with none of the ancillary revenue; you would leave the game in the hands of TV men hidden behind a pay wall, withering away from the general public that you need to attract for the future The last thing I would do is give clubs £500,000. I suspect it would be spent tomorrow with nothing to show for it long term. Every player would scramble for a pay day, every charlatan would be looking for a pay out. We've seen this when clubs sell grounds and use the revenue to try and buy success and then struggle to find a new home better than what they've given up. We would see members cash out with no thought for future generations. It would kill the game that you are trying to protect. * The FA briefly considered selling Wembley and then came to their senses. ** Football even with billions of TV revenue realises the importance of owning a ground and match day income, that's why the rebuild to include corporate hospitality, ie at the new Tottenham Ground
Edited by Richard Lowther - 09 Jan 2024 at 18:46 |
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Berksrugby,
What is happening at the moment is that 10 Premiership Clubs are getting the majority of RFU resources and will almost certainly continue to do so at the expense of the Community Clubs......who are likely to get nothing or virtually nothing from the RFU ......ever! Each club (Community or Premiership) have a single share in the RFU......there will be perceived winners and losers amongst the Community Clubs as they will all get the same payout....but it is likely to measure in the £ hundreds of thousands for each club. The Rules of the RFU and its ownership will proscribe how the proceeds will be divided.....and it will be almost certainly proportionate to shareholding.......just as it should be, not just 10 shareholders scooping up the majority of the resources. I have no regard for the Premiership clubs, they are owned by very,very rich individuals and have received most of the RFU's money for the last 20 years.......if it is such a great business and such a great investment CVC can bankroll them and let the Community Game get on with what the RFU should have been all about. Just to provide a little context I am a Chartered Accountant and a Corporate Financier.....I have been advising on and managing such transactions for the last 30 years... generally in the £10s of millions not the £100s of millions (except for one international deal which was of such a size as this transaction could be ). Big deals such as this are made to work because : i) It makes real sense for such a transaction as each group of shareholders are freed up to pursue their differing strategic objectives ii) There is enough in it to galvanise and motivate a very substantial number of small shareholders iii) the fees for the lawyers, corporate financiers and accountants are very big and the best firms want to get involved. Trust me Berksrugby...this could happen!
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Paul10 ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 2023 Location: Milton Keynes Status: Offline Points: 676 |
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Would the Twickenham debenture holders not have a say?
There was a big number for them in the latest rfu financials.
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Berksrugby ![]() First XV squad ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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I'm afraid none of the above has persuaded me, the whole idea is for the birds. Its a utopian fantasy, which if ever allowed to pass, would see the decimation of rugby union in this country beyond repair (and certainly beyond the tribulations currently facing the game).
As the other poster pointed out quite rightly, several 100's of clubs would take the handout and run, with their clubs going under a short time later when the freebie ran out, mismanaged by clubmen who, although well intentioned, on the whole would squander such an amount of capital chasing short term glory. In no small part, unlike yourself as an accountant and numbers man, because they lack a grasp of financial common sense and business acumen. I'm talking about the sorts of chairman, treasurers, presidents that harbour aspirations of elevating their club 'up the ladder' to fulfil their dreams and, in some cases, massage their egos in the community - I've seen it before, and it can have long lasting negative effects on players, coaches, and the whole fabric of a rugby club. Like was also mentioned by someone, your idea would erode the actual community game (which in the truest sense is actually some way below the Championship), and in 5 to 10 years time you would have yet more land (formerly pitches 1 - 3 at 'Old Farts RFC') sold off to property developers to build more houses/flats that no one asked for. This is not a realistic and progressive vision for rugby union in England that I can entertain, if only for the sake of the fact that I would like my grandchildren to actually still have a local club in existence to play at in the next few years.
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rugbychris ![]() British and Irish Lion ![]() Joined: 02 May 2019 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 152 |
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Very interesting and well thought out idea Big Eddie. Perhaps clubs could receive a portion of their money each season and it is ringfenced for game development?
Berksrugby seems to encapsulate the thinking at HQ. Let the thousands of volunteers at the lower levels of the game work tirelessly to promote, manage and develop the game throughout the country but be sure to keep them in their box because a little funding will mean the egotistical, inept and over ambitious clubman from the low reaches of the game will destroy rugby as we know it. P.S. please keep on buying tickets to Twickenham though
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Berksrugby ![]() First XV squad ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Interesting and well thought out idea?! It is madness, pure and simple.
Have you taken leave of your senses rugbychris? Then again, who isn't partial to a free handout now and then. ![]() |
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Robb ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 24 Jan 2017 Location: South East Status: Offline Points: 1524 |
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We need to get rid of the caretakers, not sell off the family silver!
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Berksrugby, Your arguments do not stand up to scrutiny when you compare it to the status quo: 1. The Community game is currently dying on its feet as many 'sides' fold for lack of numbers. How many clubs now run 4 senior sides as used to be the case 20 or so years ago. I don't know of many in the North West and I expect it to be the same across the country 2. Currently an unelected RFU board led by an unelected King Billy direct virtually all of the RFU's resources (which are effectively owned by the 2,000 rugby clubs throughout England) to a very tiny majority (about 0.05%) 3. You rubbish the character of progressive club Chairmen, Treasurers and Presidents painting them as charlatans who will waste the resources provided to their clubs by the dissolution of the RFU. How patronising. The Community game is withering on the vine and is being starved of investment by King Billy and his courtiers. Far better to distribute the resources fairly and proportionately whilst there are still resources available and let the Community game reset itself under new leadership solely focussed on the Community game 4. I believe in the right of the clubs to democratically decide how to utilise the RFU's resources rather than let King Billy and his unelected board direct all of the RFU's resources towards the elite game and just 10 clubs For those who say how outrageous to suggest selling off the family silver, you are mistaken. The family silver is producing no return for the circa 2,000 Community clubs. The returns are going to the elite game and the Premiership and to pay King Billy's salary. Let CVC buy Twickenham and the rest of the RFU's assets (If they are the highest bidder) and return the proceeds to the 99.9% of shareholders being the Community clubs. Twickenham and its returns can then provide for the Elite game and the Premiership and the Community Game can provide for itself. Is this a more outrageous idea then letting King Billy and his unelected courtiers reign over the dissolution of English Club rugby by stealth?
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 09:37 |
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Camquin ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11249 |
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The problem is that without the TV contract for internationals, there is no income. IF you split the sport, the professional game will take all of that. And the game does need some administration. As do all the things that the RFU is not currently doing, like marketing and increasing the number of RDOs, etc. So we need to spend at least £50m a year on club rugby. And even if all the clubs gave up their share to a new community rugby union - the capital could not generate that sort of money. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Camquin, Please see my replies to your points in red below Kind Regards Big Eddie
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 11:35 |
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WEvans ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1433 |
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Perhaps instead of criticising and insulting others you could offer your solution to the problem?
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Berksrugby, My answer to your derisory snort is in red below.
Why is it madness? I can give you plenty of examples where large corporate entities have undertaken a transaction/demerger/Management buyout etc to resolve a fundamental shareholder issue. This is one of these cases. The Community Game gets very little from the RFU. The whole structure of the RFU is devoted to satisfying the needs of the Professional and the Elite Game and of course keeping King Billy and his acolytes in hugely well remunerated employment. In any reasonable corporate entity there would be way more accountability and democracy. The Rules of the RFU are shockingly undemocratic and enable an unelected Executive Management and board to act without oversight to the huge detriment of the Community Game. Berksrugby, if you can show me how and where there is any effective oversight of King Billy and his courtiers I will be happy to engage with you on this point. However I do not believe you will be able to as I have read the Rules of the RFU and it is clear to me that the RFU Council has absolutely no teeth whatsoever! King Billy can reign with impunity.......
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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In my view the Community Clubs in English Rugby are sleep walking to a disaster that will see Private Equity (CVC) with the help of the Executive Management of the RFU (AKA as King Billy and his courtiers) controlling English rugby and all of the RFU's resources.
CVC did not get into Rugby to be a bit player, effective control is what they want and with King Billy at the helm of the RFU, and a supine RFU board and RFU Council, they will get what they want without even putting their hand in their pocket to buy out rights of the Community Clubs . While CVC and King Billy plot their course the Community Clubs watch with disinterest. The RFU with its undemocratic Rules and King Billy at the helm is almost the perfect vehicle to control. They can ignore the membership because they never find common cause and even if the Championship Clubs kick up a stink what can they actually do about it?
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 16:57 |
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Berksrugby ![]() First XV squad ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Big 'Red' Eddie,
In the interests of this thread not becoming your own personal monologue, rant, misplaced sales pitch, witch hunt or whatever else you care to call it, all devoid of rational discussion for the here and now, I have penned a response to your confused ramblings following what you deemed to be a 'derisory snort' from myself. 1) Toughen up. In the 50+ years I have been following rugby, I have come to expect and enjoy the company of those who can handle a difference of opinion without throwing their toys out the pram or crying into their pillow if someone disagrees with them. Leave the Snowflakes to follow other sports with different shaped balls. 2) When I see or hear someone (online or in the flesh) attempting to stir up an idea, ideology, revolution so far detached from reality and (in this case) what the ordinary player/fan enjoys and is content with on their Saturday afternoon, I have always stood up and challenged said propaganda. Who do you think you are talking on behalf of, aside from 6 or 7 semi pro Championship clubs? 3) Please stop referring to the Championship as 'Community rugby'. It is simply not the case. Whilst some of the clubs trying to keep their head afloat in the Championship may once have been true community clubs, those days are gone. Community rugby starts at National 1 and below, as evidenced by the tackle height law changes not affecting the top 2 tiers, which are exempt. Any league that houses fully pro sides like ET, Donny etc, can't be considered to be playing Community rugby. 4) I have had sight of the '3 polls' you created in a thinly veiled attempt to service your own agenda as a supporter of a club set to miss out when Premiership 2 is borne and semi pro clubs are removed. Quite frankly, they make laughable reading. The number of responses (or distinct lack of) should be all the evidence that you need to finally realise that, not only are you fighting a losing battle, but in all truth, no battle at all. It is viewed as a non-issue by the considerable masses that play and support rugby in this country. Several posters have pointed this out to you in different ways, yet you don't seem to be getting the message. To paraphrase, I think it was Einstein that coined the phrase about madness being the preserve of those who do the same thing again and again, expecting a different result. You would do well to take heed of this. 5) I am not a numbers man, of that I freely admit. You can examine the RFU administrative documents all you like with your background in finances, and then highlight the fine grain detail that fits your agenda to try and justify your discontent and coup d'etat against the RFU; but when all is said and done, it won't make a blind bit of difference. In 6 -12 months time, tell me I'm wrong. There is nothing more I can add, other than to wish you well, in the hope that you can move on from this slightly unhealthy preoccupation of fighting a battle that isn't there to be fought, and to be at peace with yourself.
Edited by Berksrugby - 10 Jan 2024 at 18:10 |
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Berksrugby ![]() First XV squad ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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WEvans, Please refer to points 1), 2) and 4) in my longer post above for an answer to your question. No insult intended, but clearly there are some thin-skinned rugby folk out there on this forum.
Edited by Berksrugby - 10 Jan 2024 at 18:31 |
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5042 |
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Dear Berksrugby, Thank you for the enhanced moniker, as a Liverpool supporter it works rather well and I appreciate your response. I have set out my responses in red under the points you have raised.
Edited by Big Eddie - 10 Jan 2024 at 19:02 |
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Greg ![]() First XV regular ![]() Joined: 30 Jan 2020 Location: Norfolk Status: Offline Points: 110 |
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This is all getting rather 'unecessary'. Let's move on and all play nicely together.
That the game of Rugby Union in this country (and others, incidentally) is at a crossroads is not in any doubt. What is not clear to anybody (it would seem) is the best way forward. |
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