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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: You couldn't make it up....
    Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 22:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 06:58
One rule and all that......
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 07:58
They'll hide behind that old grandfather clause. "Oh we were in the Prem before that rule came into effect, so it doesn't apply to us". This is just more evidence for Ealing to produce in court when they inevitably have to sue to get in next season if the PRL tries to block promotion again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 08:44
Or you could read the article itself and see that it’s simply a case that the local authority are slow to issue the relevant paperwork. 

There’s a world of difference between that and having a capacity of about 2000. 


Edited by 373 - 20 Oct 2022 at 08:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 09:34
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Or you could read the article itself and see that it’s simply a case that the local authority are slow to issue the relevant paperwork. 

There’s a world of difference between that and having a capacity of about 2000. 

Yes but without the relevant paper work it is a stadium that fails to meet the minimum 10,001 capacity that Premiership clubs are meant to have. Its another example of Premiership hypocrisy. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 09:56
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Or you could read the article itself and see that it’s simply a case that the local authority are slow to issue the relevant paperwork. 

There’s a world of difference between that and having a capacity of about 2000. 

Yes but without the relevant paper work it is a stadium that fails to meet the minimum 10,001 capacity that Premiership clubs are meant to have. Its another example of Premiership hypocrisy. 

Interesting as it is the the Sorry'uns stadium does not currently meet MSC I hope we haven't overlooked the end of the article:

Quote
The RFU chief executive, Bill Sweeney, and his Premiership counterpart Simon Massie-Taylor, meanwhile, have both recently insisted that ambitious Championship clubs can still be promoted to the top flight next season despite the crisis engulfing the domestic game with both Wasps and Worcester suspended and in administration.

However, that leaves clubs such as Ealing and Doncaster in the bizarre predicament of having to commit to upgrading their stadiums to a minimum capacity of 10,001 despite such evident uncertainty over the longer-term structure of English rugby. They could conceivably win promotion to the Premiership and join the remaining 11 teams next season, then set about renovating their stadiums at a multi-million pound cost only to find that from 2024-25, when the next Professional Game Agreement kicks in, a 10-team Premiership has been introduced.

“We are not going to please everybody in this process,” said Sweeney. “You never do in rugby. If you’re pleasing 70% you’re probably doing well. So we are going to have to be bold here, we are going to have to be decisive, we are going to have to say: ‘Right, if this is the best structure for the game what’s the time period for us to be able to get there.’ I see our responsibility here to set the course, to lay the direction for the long term recovery and sustainability of the English game.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 10:01
It isn’t though, is it? It was 10,500 before renovation work took place, it will return to being as such afterwards. Its not like the capacity was 3000 and they were let in. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 10:12
Links not working anymore.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 10:27
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

It isn’t though, is it? It was 10,500 before renovation work took place, it will return to being as such afterwards. Its not like the capacity was 3000 and they were let in. 

You miss the point. NOW it doesn't meet the minimum criteria that the Premiership insist on others meeting. It doesn't matter if the capacity is 3000 or 9999, it is still not 10,001, yet they've been allowed to play on. 

Why can they play without meeting the criteria but others would not be allowed to?


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 12:42
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

It isn’t though, is it? It was 10,500 before renovation work took place, it will return to being as such afterwards. Its not like the capacity was 3000 and they were let in. 

You miss the point. NOW it doesn't meet the minimum criteria that the Premiership insist on others meeting. It doesn't matter if the capacity is 3000 or 9999, it is still not 10,001, yet they've been allowed to play on. 

Why can they play without meeting the criteria but others would not be allowed to?



Come on Richard you know the answer to this - Premiership regulations do not apply to Saracens. How many times have we discovered this?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GreenThrough&Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 12:49
Please let's not let anger over ridiculous entry criteria or a personal dislike of Saracens cloud what is a fairly simple scenario. It's not a case of one rule for one and not for another.

Saracens had a ground with a capacity in excess of 10,000 and held the relevant safety certificate. They invested in improving the ground and whilst those improvements were being made, the capacity dropped to below 10,000 and the safety certificate was essentially void. This would have applied throughout last season whilst work was ongoing.

Work has completed bringing the capacity back above 10,000 and the safety certificate has been applied for, awaiting issue. Whilst awaiting issue, they have to operate on a reduced capacity.

It's not like they've moved to a new ground that is under capacity and have been allowed to play there whilst doing the relevant improvements..

Before anyone shouts at me, im not defending Saracens, Premiership clubs, PRL or the RFU. The governance of the game and the pandering to a dozen clubs at the top of the pile is shambolic to the detriment of the wider game. 
But let's try and see this for what it is - a club improving their facilities and infrastructure, not an attempt to work around the current regulations.

For what it's worth, my recommendation would be to change the entry criteria to remove the minimum capacity element (which i believe is justified on the basis that a capacity in excess of 10,000 makes a safety certificates mandatory) and replace with a requirement that clubs must hold the relevant level of safety certificate regardless of capacity. My understanding is Doncaster hold this despite their capacity being c.5,000. I don't think there is anything stopping a club for applying for a safety certificate based on capacity (feel free to correct me if im wrong).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thunderbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 15:06
Coventry live strap line , Wasps total debt £100 million. Disapprove 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 17:25
Originally posted by Thunderbird Thunderbird wrote:

Coventry live strap line , Wasps total debt £100 million. Disapprove 
As confirmed by their CEO yesterday.

As I understand it he hasn't lost his job as he is working with the administrators.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 18:24
Originally posted by GreenThrough&Through GreenThrough&Through wrote:

Please let's not let anger over ridiculous entry criteria or a personal dislike of Saracens cloud what is a fairly simple scenario. It's not a case of one rule for one and not for another.

Saracens had a ground with a capacity in excess of 10,000 and held the relevant safety certificate. They invested in improving the ground and whilst those improvements were being made, the capacity dropped to below 10,000 and the safety certificate was essentially void. This would have applied throughout last season whilst work was ongoing.

Work has completed bringing the capacity back above 10,000 and the safety certificate has been applied for, awaiting issue. Whilst awaiting issue, they have to operate on a reduced capacity.

It's not like they've moved to a new ground that is under capacity and have been allowed to play there whilst doing the relevant improvements..

Before anyone shouts at me, im not defending Saracens, Premiership clubs, PRL or the RFU. The governance of the game and the pandering to a dozen clubs at the top of the pile is shambolic to the detriment of the wider game. 
But let's try and see this for what it is - a club improving their facilities and infrastructure, not an attempt to work around the current regulations.

For what it's worth, my recommendation would be to change the entry criteria to remove the minimum capacity element (which i believe is justified on the basis that a capacity in excess of 10,000 makes a safety certificates mandatory) and replace with a requirement that clubs must hold the relevant level of safety certificate regardless of capacity. My understanding is Doncaster hold this despite their capacity being c.5,000. I don't think there is anything stopping a club for applying for a safety certificate based on capacity (feel free to correct me if im wrong).

Saracens just perfectly illustrate the hypocisy around the minimum ground capacity.  They have redeveloped the ground whilst in the Premiership - an option that wouldn't have been available to Doncaster, Ealing et al - what is it that allows them to do that but not clubs currently outside the Premiership? If Ealing had been promoted why couldn't they develop their ground during the season, rather than have to have the 10,001 capacity before the season started?

It illustrates that the 10,001 capacity isn't there for legitimate rugby reasons. It is a figure litterlly plucked out of the air - and seemed to co-incidence with the capacity at the Rec at the time.  If Saracens can play in a stadium without that minimum capacity in place - and presumably it was lower whilst the stand was being built - why can't others play with whatever capacity they want?

Premiership football have capacities ranging from approx 11,000 to 74,000 - they don't seem to think it is a worry.  Let clubs play with what they want and develop at a pace they can financial afford - that is what the Premeirship clubs have done but the cartel don't want others to do the same. 



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 18:33
It isn’t plucked out of the air though, it’s legislation:





Edited by 373 - 20 Oct 2022 at 18:33
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 18:45
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

It isn’t plucked out of the air though, it’s legislation:




You are conflating two things. Yes you need the SSG licence for 10,000 capacity but the Premiership didn't have to set thier minimum capacity at that figure - they could have set it at 12,000 or 15,000 or 20,000...

The only reason they seem to have settled on 10,000 is because it was about the capacity of the Rec at the time they decided upon this figure. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 22:09
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

It isn’t plucked out of the air though, it’s legislation:




You are conflating two things. Yes you need the SSG licence for 10,000 capacity but the Premiership didn't have to set thier minimum capacity at that figure - they could have set it at 12,000 or 15,000 or 20,000...

The only reason they seem to have settled on 10,000 is because it was about the capacity of the Rec at the time they decided upon this figure. 

That’s nonsense, Richard. The legislative level applies to all sports, not just rugby union. As I have pointed out before, however, the FA sought a derogation for Bournemouth when promoted to the Premiership because their ground was less than 10,001. PRL could have done the same but didn’t. Nothing to do with the Rec!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 07:11
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

It isn’t plucked out of the air though, it’s legislation:




You are conflating two things. Yes you need the SSG licence for 10,000 capacity but the Premiership didn't have to set thier minimum capacity at that figure - they could have set it at 12,000 or 15,000 or 20,000...

The only reason they seem to have settled on 10,000 is because it was about the capacity of the Rec at the time they decided upon this figure. 

That’s nonsense, Richard. The legislative level applies to all sports, not just rugby union. As I have pointed out before, however, the FA sought a derogation for Bournemouth when promoted to the Premiership because their ground was less than 10,001. PRL could have done the same but didn’t. Nothing to do with the Rec!

Sorry but you are conflating two different things. Having a safety certificate and having a minimum ground capacity to play in the Premiership. One does not have to follow on from another. 

As you will see from from the football example all clubs have to have a safety certificate in place but the Premier league don't have a minimum ground capacity, I. E they didn't force Bournemouth to have a 20,000 capacity before they were allowed in. 

Rugby could follow in the same manner. Clubs would still have to a safety licence * either under the SASG or via their local council. There is no reason why a minimum capacity could not be set at 5000, but for fear of repeating myself it is set at 10,000 to keep out clubs, that 10,000 being the minimum capacity of Bath at the time.

(* The fact Saracens currently don't have one but can theoretically hold 9999 proves that it is not essential to hold one under the SASG) 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GreenThrough&Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 09:52
We are on the same page in that the minimum capacity requirement is stupid and clubs should be allowed time whilst in the Premiership to develop their grounds accordingly to meet whatever appropriate standards are required.

However, i go back to my original point - Saracens already had a 10,001+ capacity stadium. They then chose to redevelop part of it which meant they had to operate for a period of time under reduced capacity and are having to continue to do so until they get the new safety certificate for the updated ground. This is not uncommon across pretty much every sport where clubs want to redevelop their ground without moving out temporarily whilst it's done.

It's not like they were starting at 2,000 and wanting to grow from there.

In addition, im pretty sure the decision to not approve promotion for both Ealing and Doncaster (the incorrect decision) stated that neither club had any plans in firm place at the time to develop their grounds further.
 So whilst one club had a definitive plan for redevelopment and carried that out, 2 clubs had no plans for development.

Trying to compare the 2 situations is like trying to compare apples with oranges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 Oct 2022 at 10:21
Originally posted by GreenThrough&Through GreenThrough&Through wrote:

We are on the same page in that the minimum capacity requirement is stupid and clubs should be allowed time whilst in the Premiership to develop their grounds accordingly to meet whatever appropriate standards are required.

However, i go back to my original point - Saracens already had a 10,001+ capacity stadium. They then chose to redevelop part of it which meant they had to operate for a period of time under reduced capacity and are having to continue to do so until they get the new safety certificate for the updated ground. This is not uncommon across pretty much every sport where clubs want to redevelop their ground without moving out temporarily whilst it's done.

It's not like they were starting at 2,000 and wanting to grow from there.

In addition, im pretty sure the decision to not approve promotion for both Ealing and Doncaster (the incorrect decision) stated that neither club had any plans in firm place at the time to develop their grounds further.
 So whilst one club had a definitive plan for redevelopment and carried that out, 2 clubs had no plans for development.

Trying to compare the 2 situations is like trying to compare apples with oranges.

I agree with your first paragraph but not the rest.  

When Saracens first moved to the then Copthall Stadium it didn't meet the 10,000 capacity. One report I have read said the capacity was 2000 when they first moved in. They have developed it over time whilst being in the Premiership (and during their period on the naughty step in the Championship). 

Doncaster and Ealing were not allowed to follow this approach. They had to have 10,000 capacity BEFORE they would be allowed to play in the Premiership - not a gradual increased from 2,000 etc. 

Explain to me why is there a difference. It is a fact that Saracens didn't meet the 10,000 capacity when they first moved it. You can't excuse it for reasons that they had plans to develop it later - but deny exactly the same principle for Doncaster and Ealing. 



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