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Dual Registrations & Loans |
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The Blues 
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Joined: 05 Aug 2007 Status: Offline Points: 4935 |
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 Topic: Dual Registrations & LoansPosted: 13 Oct 2024 at 00:27 |
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I was just wondering like Squadron Leader is it time to move on with regards to DR's and Loans? After all and I am sure this will go down like a lead balloon for some:
1. DR's have been around for ~19 years! And those young players always speak highly of their experience with the clubs and how it set their career up. Dan Cole being one of the early ones. 2. All clubs, yes all clubs have used them at some stage, whether short term or long term. 3. Every player who pulls on the team shirt will play for the team, for the fans of that team and may well get injured, potentially career ending for that team. 4. Clubs have been kind of forced into it with funding dramatically cut and the promised return of money disappearing, with no sponsor. A cheap option is to pay a Premiership club for up and coming players. 5. All but Scottish (Caldy & Chinnor) took huge loans to entertain us during COVID and these need repaying, so the clubs need to save money. We would rather they still be here and not go into oblivion! 6. The majority of the Championship clubs agreed to the regulations. Yes 10 starting or even in a squad is too much but the clubs allowed it! 7. As much as we would all like to not have them, the RFU are to blame for allowing Premiership clubs to hold on to all the talent. They should also reward all clubs lower down the pyramids who produce players. 8. Championship clubs have agreed a voluntary code of having no more than 6 in a squad. Although 3 said they could not do this with agreements in place they would work towards the goal. I guess the 3 are Scottish, Ampthill and Hartpury? Next season these are proposed to be in the regulations. 9. Let's be honest if your club can't beat a bunch of 2/3rd choice Premiership players that have may been shipped in last minute, are you really title contenders ready to face a poor Newcastle side? Last year Blues & Ealing both beat Premiership Cup teams, so it is doable. 10. There probably isn't going to be relegation yet again (a mistake in my opinion), so other than a bit pride for most clubs, what are we actually playing for.
Edited by The Blues - 13 Oct 2024 at 09:17 |
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Storty
First XV squad 
Joined: 28 Apr 2024 Location: Stortford Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 07:31 |
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I've only got into rugby over the last couple of years and struggle with the excessive use of dual registrations.
I genuinely do not see the point in a club playing at a certain level if they can only do it by loaning half their team. Would much rather get relegated with your own team. It's quite ridiculous you have championship clubs relying on a club one league above them. Not that rugby allows promotion, but if a championship club with 8 dual reg won the league and their ground were big enough then they'd lose half their team on promotion. Domestic rugby is already a closed shop but some championship and nat 1 clubs need to have some self respect and stop relying on dual reg. Let the prem youngsters form their own division rather than infiltrating clubs lower down. Some may say that they're needed for injury cover. Totally disagree. That's what your 2nd team is for. If a player in your 2s is injured you go to your 3s. Same concept for the 1s. Would personally like the rule to be no more than 2 dual reg in the squad. No issue with a couple joining but it becomes silly when half the team aren't your players.
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Nosides
Mini and Juniors 
Joined: 22 Sep 2024 Location: Europe Status: Offline Points: 6 |
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 07:45 |
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[QUOT
but if a championship club with 8 dual reg won the league and their ground were big enough then they'd lose half their team on promotion. [/QUOTE] If nothing else, this is the crux of the matter. So at the end of the season Hartpury (for example) get promoted, lose all their dual reg players and come back down, probably as most of the clubs enjoying (?) hosting more than 4 DR players in a match side would do. No-one would (could) ever make promotion to the premiership sustainable. Those clubs who actively seek promotion either need to invest or forget it.
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Bluesman11
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 09:09 |
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That’s a bit of a moot point. None of the clubs with any realistic chance of finishing top rely on DRs.
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The Blues
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 09:21 |
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I covered this point… No. 9, if you can’t beat 2nd/3rd choice players, you’d have to replace the whole squad!
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Trailfinder
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 12:31 |
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Why not replace DR with season long loans? part of the issue for me is the inconsistency week by week.
I’ll never forgot the debacle of Hartpury drafting in a load of Gloucester and Bristol players for their crunch bottom of the table clash against Richmond a few years back. It distorts the league and imo impacts the integrity of the competition.
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tigerburnie
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 12:42 |
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The RFU set the laws of the game and we abide by them, having DR players, who are at the Lions are set to be with the club for the whole season, ie signed before the season begins, do not guarantee any success. As I understand it this is part of the pathway for players to rise to international level if they have the talent.
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FHLH
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 13:41 |
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The Spirit of Squadron Leader lives!
The Championship means nothing if it is stacked with DR players. It is a quasi Premiership. Every club suffered during Covid and most have managed with the exception of Premiership clubs who are holding DCMS to ransom. Frankly, I'd rather see Premiership clubs fail and rebuild. If England suffer then do be it. If anything, I'd rather see season long registration so that the opposition know who they are playing. If a club cannot live within it's means then drop through the leagues until you can. Eventually they'll get to the premier league in the country - National One. A Premiership flooded with non EQP and marquee players means nothing unless the salary cap is lifted and financial regulations enforced, even if the league winner is relegated. It's time for the RFU to man up - but they won't so I hope there is two club relegation / promotion and I'd see Cambridge in National One where rugby is played in a club atmosphere. I know there are exceptions on The Championship where clubs are of the classic club model but even Ampthill have been infected with Dual Registration and as to MacHarlequins - they're within the playing regulations but have no soul. The Championship is neither a professional or amateur league it's a combination of both and whilst Caldy beat Ealing last season  it's not going to happen that often.But, we know that the RFU are run by and for the Premiership - we've seen that The Championship clubs struggle in negotiation with the RFU and Premiership. We all know that mass DR is wrong and if it is to continue then match day limits need to be addressed - say 3 DR - and match day squads need to come down to 18.
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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tigerburnie
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 16:26 |
That could lead to serious injuries I think, we should not go down the road of players not leaving the pitch when injured just to keep the numbers up.
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Thatbloke
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 16:36 |
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Matchday squads of 20 and allowing interchanges rather than straight substitutions seems to work well in Nat1 & Nat2 so why not give that a whirl?
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Breakdown
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Joined: 11 Apr 2023 Location: SW London Status: Offline Points: 89 |
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 17:56 |
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I think, having spoken to quite a lot of L Scottish fans and knowing a couple of the players there, it is the effect on the teams that include so many DRs that matter. I went to a Scottish game last season where the crowd was about 550. Of those, I would estimate 150-200 were from the visiting club. There were 13 Harlequins squad and academy players in the Scottish 23, many of them young and most had fairly last family'friends groups. A mate of mine is the uncle of one of them and we looked round the crowd together and he pointed out the Quins family groups he knew. There was an average of 6 or 7 supporters per Quins player. Then there were a load of other Quins squad and Academy lads as well as Tabai Manson! Take all those out and you are left with a Scottish "fanbase" of probably fewer than 250. That is not a club.
I think the case with Dings Crusaders may be different. They had 10 players from Bristol playing Richmond yesterday, but they are also a strong community club with at least four men's teams and women's rugby as well as full minis/juniors. I am not aware that the club's supporters are as tanjong off with the loans system as the supporters of London Scottish are. A minor point is that London Scottish used to have a lot of Scottish players. Now they seem to have very few, presumably because of the Harlequins link. |
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Broken down. Beyond repair.
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Rabbie Burns
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Posted: 13 Oct 2024 at 19:49 |
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Dings apparently had 12 when they played Plymouth and it would seem Pat Lam has free range of the dressing room
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So many Christians not enough Lions
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Storty
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Joined: 28 Apr 2024 Location: Stortford Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 07:54 |
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Dings are a stain on Nat 1. Will be interesting how they fare over the prem cup when they may have to field some of their own players.
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islander
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Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 14:05 |
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One weekend, Newcastle continue their losing start to season while Donny - possibly the only Champ team who'll pass the Prem audit this season - win at Ealing. At this stage it appears the end-of-season play-off might actually materialise.
And then the following weekend another Prem club make a swathe of players available for the Exiles, who win at Castle Park and deny the hosts anything, leaving a dent in their hopes of winning the league. Does anyone think the sequence of events above may be connected?
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FHLH
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Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 14:22 |
How could it possibly be so? That would amount to Cartel like activities - if anyone at CMA is watching and anyone has made a complaint. However, for the avoidance of doubt, (1) does the playoff need to be bottom vs top or can it be bottom vs only club that meets minimum criteria? (2) Could the bottom club be loaded with DR/Loan players
Edited by FHLH - 14 Oct 2024 at 14:28 |
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Halliford
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Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 21:56 |
I think you’re reading too much into it. Exiles always have at least half the team from Quins, perhaps they were just a bit better this week! Caleb Ashworth played for Esher and scored 2 tries on debut, having played for Exiles the week before. He follows Marley, Collier and Sinckler spending time in Nat 1 with Esher.
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Halliford
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Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 21:56 |
I think you’re reading too much into it. Exiles always have at least half the team from Quins, perhaps they were just a bit better this week! Caleb Ashworth played for Esher and scored 2 tries on debut, having played for Exiles the week before. He follows Marley, Collier and Sinckler spending time in Nat 1 with Esher.
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FHLH
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Posted: 14 Oct 2024 at 23:55 |
And therein lies the worst of DR. Young Ashworth should join a club and play for a season at least IMHO
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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front5
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Posted: 15 Oct 2024 at 05:40 |
Rugby in the top 3 levels in the North East is essentially done. The fan base and income from said fans is not enough to compete with other areas. It’s not just Newcastle also DMP, and you can go back through years and see other clubs in NE fall down the rugby Pyramid. I don’t make these comments on an unfounded basis - Falcons - stadium 10500 capacity - 652000 people living in the area DMP - stadium-20000 capacity under 200000 people living in the area So the NE clubs need attract 2% of locals (based on falcons) DMPs figures seem like a huge problem. Look at London 4 teams at this level with over 10000000 potential fan base looking at an average stadium capacity of 12000 - 48000 fans between 4 clubs. Professional rugby does not work unless a financial backer is involved due to rugby still being unable to attract fans week in week out I would love to see a similar model used in UK as in Aus/NZ
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BigChief
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Posted: 15 Oct 2024 at 08:33 |
or maybe Donny were just rubbish on the night, sailed too close to the wind and ultimately lost a bore-fest of a game ?? (I wasn't there but have read a couple of reports that highlight an error filled match on their part) This being so it isn't any fault of London Scottish on the night (perhaps it was the ref as another poster put it ?). I recall a win against Pirates last week who had 6 or 7 Exeter Chiefs players on the night ? No sustained assault (by posters on here) on Pirates for their connections - or Hartpury/Gloucester with their players for that matter...... Oh wait, I forgot - sorry, its the height of 'London Scottish bashing season' (yet again) - roll on the weekend!!!
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For the ordinary purposes of conversation, a superficial knowledge of many things goes further than an intimacy with one or two.
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FHLH wrote: