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gerg_861 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Citings
    Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 15:37
I think that there is generally a citings topic running through the season, so opening one here.

* Matt Challinor is still out for a citing back in October for law 9.12 - striking with forearm or elbow

* Unsurprisingly, Toby Flood has been cited for law 9.11 reckless or dangerous play - I'm interested in which instance. He'll be going in front of the judicial officer today.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 16:46
Surely twice
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OldNick View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 16:50
If there’s going to be this thread, let’s have it complete within the Championship for this season. All additional disciplinarians to date listed.
It’s not a long list...

15/10/2019     12/10/2019     Shay Kerry, Ampthill & District     Ampthill & District v Nottingham     Red card      Law 9.27 - 2 Yellow cards. Sending off sufficient.

08/10/2019     04/10/2019     Joe Luca Smith, London Scottish     London Scottish v Yorkshire Carnegie     Red card      Law 9.13 - Dangerous Tackle. Not admitted, 4 weeks

26/09/2019     21/09/2019     Oliver Stedman, Doncaster Knights     Doncaster Knights v Hartpury RFC      Citing      Law 9.12 - Punch/Strike. Admitted, 3 weeks


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 17:01
If the match hadn't been on tv perhaps the incidents could have been missed. The leading with the shoulder was right in front of me. There was a huge gasp/shout from the crowd as it was obvious where the contact was. I only saw the neck roll on tv, Flood must have been fully aware of what he was doing. Both actions in my opinion were both reckless and dangerous. In my opinion the t m o was also very much at fault.
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No 7 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 17:43
I know Nick disagree`s with how the `citing` takes place but my understanding is that there is a citing officer but he is not at the game and as to be notified by the team management .

I found these regulations.........

17.11 Matches where Citing Commissioners are not Appointed 17.11.1 For Matches where, in accordance with Regulation 17.8.3 or 17.8.6, it is not reasonably practicable for a Citing Commissioner to be appointed, the following shall apply: (a) Each team participating in a Match, or any of its authorised officials, or its Union, may cite: (i) a Player(s) for an act(s) of alleged Foul Play committed during that Match provided that such act(s) have not been detected by the Match Officials; (ii) a Player for more than one incident of alleged Foul Play in the same Match; and (iii) more than one Player in any Match. (b) Unions and Tournament Organisers shall put in place procedures for team citing which accord with the following: (i) citings by teams or their Unions shall be in writing and sent by an authorised member of the Union or management of the team to the nominated officer of the Host Union or Tournament Organiser responsible for the Match in which the incident that is the subject of the citing complaint occurred. Last updated 1 January, 2015 244 REGULATION 17 (ii) such citing, to be effective, must be made no later than 48 hours of the conclusion of the Match in which the Foul Play is alleged to have occurred; (iii) the responsibility for obtaining information and reportREGULATION 17 (ii) such citing, to be effective, must be made no later than 48 hours of the conclusion of the Match in which the Foul Play is alleged to have occurred; (iii) the responsibility for obtaining information and reports in relation to the citing shall rest with the Union or team management making the citing complaint. The Union or team management shall liaise with the Host Union or Tournament Organiser (or its/their nominated officer) to ensure that relevant information and reports are circulated to the appropriate parties in advance of the hearing; (iv) the independent disciplinary body of the Union or Tournament Organiser having jurisdiction over the Match, shall consider the citing complaint and any other evidence it deems appropriate including via televisual means, oral (witness), film or photographic evidence. The Player cited shall have the right to be heard, to be represented and to produce evidence; and (v) at any hearing of a citing complaint a representative of the citing team or Union must be in attendance, failing which the citing complaint will be dismissed. If an act of Foul Play is found to have been committed the disciplinary body of the Union or Tournament Organiser having jurisdiction over the Match shall take the appropriate action and shall apply the World Rugby’s Sanctions for Foul Play set out in Appendix 1, by following the core sanctioning principles set out in Regulation 17.19. 17.11.2 Players who are the subject of a citing by Unions shall not be provisionally suspended pending the hearing of the case.


Edited by No 7 - 13 Nov 2019 at 17:49
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 17:46
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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OldNick View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 18:28
No 7

You are quoting the section of the 2015 update, for matches at tiers where there is no citing commissionaire. 

Please have a look at the 2019-20 appendix 4 to regulation 19, which is the current regulation.


On the very first page is states the following...

"The procedures set out below apply only to Clubs in the Premiership and Championship and Women’s Premier 15s (1st XV) – where an RFU Citing Commissioner is appointed. 

1. The RFU Head of Discipline shall ensure that match footage is made available to the Citing Commissioner. 

2. A Club participating in a match may refer any incidents in the match to the Citing Commissioner that they want him/her to consider, within the timescales set out below: Premiership: 4 hours of conclusion of the match Championship and Women’s Premier 15s (1st XV): 8 hours of conclusion of the match 

3. A Citing Commissioner alone shall have the power and responsibility to cite a Player whom the independent video and/or other evidence shows to have committed an act of Foul Play whether or not it has been detected by the Match Officials. Such citing, to be effective, must be made in writing to be received by the RFU Head of Discipline from the nominated Citing Commissioner within the timescales set out below: "

Point 3 is key.

There is a lot more - it goes down to point 11, before starting on level 3 and below. Nowhere in points 1-11, which cover tiers 1 & 2, and womens' premiership rugby do clubs cite players. 


Edited by OldNick - 13 Nov 2019 at 18:30
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 18:35
That's not very readable 'legislation' - not that I'm blaming you No7. Not sure the detail is critically important, the gist is that a citing commissioner is appointed to each GKIPAC game and reviews it to see if there are any disciplinary concerns, charging players where an offence is deemed sufficiently serious. Clubs are entitled to draw the attention of the CC to particular incidents... that's about the long & short of it I think.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 18:49
Absolutely Islander.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 18:52
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

No 7

You are quoting the section of the 2015 update, for matches at tiers where there is no citing commissionaire. 

Please have a look at the 2019-20 appendix 4 to regulation 19, which is the current regulation.


On the very first page is states the following...

"The procedures set out below apply only to Clubs in the Premiership and Championship and Women’s Premier 15s (1st XV) – where an RFU Citing Commissioner is appointed. 

1. The RFU Head of Discipline shall ensure that match footage is made available to the Citing Commissioner. 



The updated regs you quote state.

A Club participating in a match may refer any incidents in the match to the Citing Commissioner that they want him/her to consider, within the timescales set out below: 

I believe that confirms that the club instigate the citing.

2. A Club participating in a match may refer any incidents in the match to the Citing Commissioner that they want him/her to consider, within the timescales set out below: Premiership: 4 hours of conclusion of the match Championship and Women’s Premier 15s (1st XV): 8 hours of conclusion of the match 

3. A Citing Commissioner alone shall have the power and responsibility to cite a Player whom the independent video and/or other evidence shows to have committed an act of Foul Play whether or not it has been detected by the Match Officials. Such citing, to be effective, must be made in writing to be received by the RFU Head of Discipline from the nominated Citing Commissioner within the timescales set out below: "

Point 3 is key.

There is a lot more - it goes down to point 11, before starting on level 3 and below. Nowhere in points 1-11, which cover tiers 1 & 2, and womens' premiership rugby do clubs cite players. 

I believe that confirms it is the club who have been offended against that intigate the citing procedure .


Edited by No 7 - 13 Nov 2019 at 18:53
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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gerg_861 View Drop Down
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 19:05
Newcastle twitter has stated that only one incident is being cited, bur not which.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Nov 2019 at 19:05
we're getting into semantics here about what is meant by the word 'cite'. In the strict sense, only the citing commissioner may cite a player. In the looser sense, clubs may draw the CC's attention to particular incidents - some people might refer to this drawing of attention as 'citing'. Strictly it isn't, but it has a very similar effect...
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 00:13
Disregarding the semantics the procedure is often instigated by the club .
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 09:21
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Disregarding the semantics the procedure is often instigated by the club .

Which would make sense as the players on the pitch would probably draw the incident to their coaching staff's attention, who will probably review it if they didn't see it in real time and then refer it if they think that it has merit.
Sorry, I haven't got time to go through the RFU links, but what about the officials? There may be an incident that they did not see fully (partially obscured/long way away etc.), if they review back are they able to refer to the CC if they think that they missed the said incident?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 10:11
Brizzer, as far as I can see there is no regulation to cover this, but of course a citing commissioner can cite without referral from a team. I’m sure if the referee said “I may have missed something at about the hour” the CC would take a careful look at around then, and if appropriate would cite.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 15:21
2. A Club participating in a match may refer any incidents in the match to the Citing Commissioner that they want him/her to consider, within the timescales set out below:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 15:53
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

2. A Club participating in a match may refer any incidents in the match to the Citing
Commissioner that they want him/her to consider, within the timescales set out
below:


Agreed.
They may refer to the CC.
They may not cite.
The CC must consider whether or not to cite.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 19:04
Originally posted by OldNick OldNick wrote:

Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

2. A Club participating in a match may refer any incidents in the match to the Citing
Commissioner that they want him/her to consider, within the timescales set out
below:


Agreed.
They may refer to the CC.
They may not cite.
The CC must consider whether or not to cite.


And still it rumbles on. Which do people think will end first, this Semantathon or Toby Flood's ban?
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 19:56
Well, I’ve no plans to explain further, and Toby Flood’s ban is just for Sunday. Based on that, his ban, although very short may last longer.
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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Nov 2019 at 20:03
I doubt Newcastle will miss him too much tbh.
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