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Women V Men in Rugby !

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No 7 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Women V Men in Rugby !
    Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 15:37
Men V Women !

Brian Moore suggested that the Englands Women's team should play the England mens U20,s to obtain the physical and technical oppents to improve their game. 
In my opinion this should be avoided at all costs and if this is ever allowed I would  believe that ' the world has gone truly mad '  I am sure in this ever changing World some opinions will differ to mine and I accept that. My belief and my experience in playing and coaching is that the level of aggression and  violent collisions are worlds apart and men and women should not mix in Rugby Union.
Hopefully this post will engage people with differing opinions and kept to a civil level and not be shut down because people have a different opinion. I am talking about the Exeter Chiefs logo and supporters Indian Chop chant .

I understand that the use of Saracens has come under criticism because of it's Arab / Muslim origin. 


Edited by No 7 - 28 Mar 2022 at 15:38
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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OldNick View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 16:08
Surely this should be in Clubhouse Chat as it had nothing to do with the Championship.
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No 7 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 16:30
You are right Nick !
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 16:43
I've read the Moore article in the Telegraph and feel his suggestion is a slightly tongue-in-cheek way of illustrating the point he's making, which is that England Red Roses are in a difficult position because of the dearth of serious opposition. Investment is needed by other unions, he argues, or the ability of the women's game to develop & realise its potential will be compromised. At the end he says:

'If England Women cannot find the sort of physical and technical challenge that they need in ordinary fixtures against conventional opponents, they should look to see if it is possible to have structured training sessions and games against England u18 or u20 teams.

'Purists might balk and in an ideal world, where every tier one union valued and invested in women's rugby, this would not be necessary. Until then, they might have to be creative.'

Personally I think matches would be wrong, but trialling some form of structured training could be worthwhile...


Edited by islander - 28 Mar 2022 at 16:43
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No 7 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 17:44
I believe most men including U18`s or U20`s would find it very difficult to play to their real ability and muster the aggression and intensity that they play at in their usual rugby match. Most men I believe would hold back . However tongue in cheek you think Brian Moore is being is it a ridiculous suggestion or is it in this modern day the next level of `Equality` we are gradually moving towards ?.
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 17:58
My viewpoint, several years ago Sara Cox appointed to referee us at Blackheath and I am struggling to remember the opponents on the day and the game was played in a totally different way. Never have I heard such politeness and not once was a decision questioned or moaned about which until that day I had never heard (I do wear a ref link). Strangely next week went back to how it was previously moaning & groaning with plenty of shop floor language. So I’m not sure that it would be a full blooded contest that is being asked for
So many Christians not enough Lions
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 18:03
Careful No7 you're inching towards shutdown😂😂
It's all a nonsense - promoting women's sport is all fine, I have no problem with that but it appears the BBC, yes them again, who seem to be ramming it down our throats whether we like it or not. The problem is that there is a lack of regular meaningful competition in all sports not just rugby (eg England Ladies football beating someone 21 - 0 or whatever it was)
Also I don't believe "equality" should be defined as men playing against women - there are very few sports where that would be feasible due to the obvious physical differences


Edited by Thatbloke - 28 Mar 2022 at 18:05
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Robb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 18:14
Men against women should never happen. It's not safe for women due to the natural physical differences between the sexes.
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carlos fandango View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote carlos fandango Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 18:37
Back in 1990, my club were on tour in Edmonton, Canada. The Canadian women's team were having a scheduled training session (very difficult and rare back then because of the distances involved) and we were asked to provide opposition. We opted for backs in the forwards and forwards in the backs with no pushing at scrums. 

We were very conscious of the damage we could do even as junior club players and definitely didn't whack into tackles like we might have if playing men. In my perhaps old-fashioned view, even U20s men could seriously hurt women players unintentionally. Particularly some of the behemoths that pass as rugby players these days.

Back in 1990, great fun was had by all both on the pitch and in the bar afterwards, where the ladies more than held their own in post session festivities.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 19:48
Nice story CF, tho' I'm not sure how relevant tales from the amateur era are in this context.

Someone else has mentioned a 'full-blooded' contest, I don't think many people would seriously suggest a competitive game. Altho' would Eng u18 men playing Red Roses be more of a mismatch than professional men v amateur men, which happens sometimes in pre-season or at the World Cup (or even in the Championship last season when Sarries played Richmond)? And to repeat, I certainly think structured training could be viable...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 20:29
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

I've read the Moore article in the Telegraph and feel his suggestion is a slightly tongue-in-cheek way of illustrating the point he's making, which is that England Red Roses are in a difficult position because of the dearth of serious opposition. Investment is needed by other unions, he argues, or the ability of the women's game to develop & realise its potential will be compromised. At the end he says:

'If England Women cannot find the sort of physical and technical challenge that they need in ordinary fixtures against conventional opponents, they should look to see if it is possible to have structured training sessions and games against England u18 or u20 teams.

'Purists might balk and in an ideal world, where every tier one union valued and invested in women's rugby, this would not be necessary. Until then, they might have to be creative.'

Personally I think matches would be wrong, but trialling some form of structured training could be worthwhile...

I believe the men's U20 team were humiliated enough in the recent Six Nations tournament.  No need to have the Red Roses heap further shame on them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Geoff DC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 20:46
Back in the early 80s I played full back in Poof Ball for Gwernogle Cosmics https://bit.ly/3JNjgvx
In our hippy league, teams could play 2 women for 1 man.
IIRC a game against Llanybydder https://bit.ly/3IISGlH had about 6 women in their team so they had 14 players
8 men in football boots and 6 women in hobnail boots.
That was attritional, we ended up bruised & battered. 
When the female players tripped or hauled us to ground (often on top of them) they called us out for groping etc..
However once the game was over, peace & love reigned.

I've not played Rugby against women but Poof Ball & Hockey yes - take my advice don't underestimate them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 21:42
I played basketball for about 10 years in America, and I was not good enough to even be in the game day squad in our small town's team (seriously a 600 person village). However when I went to Uni I played fairly regular pick-up games (making teams from whoever was around the gym). One day, I was on a side with four other guys, none of who were especially tall. When we won our game 21-18, a bunch of really tall women called next. It turned out that we were facing half of the University women's team. These were all fully scholarship holding young women on at a 40000 person university...and all of them were taller than our tallest player. We butchered them 21-12. On the plus side, we got invited to a party at their house afterward...which is not a story that I will share here.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2022 at 22:24
A tall story Wink
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Mar 2022 at 07:40
Originally posted by gerg_861 gerg_861 wrote:

I played basketball for about 10 years in America, and I was not good enough to even be in the game day squad in our small town's team (seriously a 600 person village). However when I went to Uni I played fairly regular pick-up games (making teams from whoever was around the gym). One day, I was on a side with four other guys, none of who were especially tall. When we won our game 21-18, a bunch of really tall women called next. It turned out that we were facing half of the University women's team. These were all fully scholarship holding young women on at a 40000 person university...and all of them were taller than our tallest player. We butchered them 21-12. On the plus side, we got invited to a party at their house afterward...which is not a story that I will share here.

Sounds like fun :-)
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2022 at 12:40
Having played some touch rugby sessions with England womens internationals all I can say is that they were incredible athletes with superb skill sets and I have no doubt they could complete against men, and I see no reason why controlled live play sessions could not occur. I also played a full contact game in Tanzania with the opposition fielding an ex USA womens centre . . . she was hard as nails!
Run with it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30 Mar 2022 at 21:05
Ridiculous idea, what happens if a U20 comes in and knocks out or hospitalises one of the females.

Cycling do not even think it is fair a Transgender cyclist competing with a woman.

Emily Bridges: Transgender cyclist will not race in women's National Omnium event https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

“Men typically have between 10 and 30 nanomoles per litre depending on age and time of day. But a young healthy male's level of testosterone will range from 20 to 30, compared with a female's range of 0.7 to 2.8, according to the NHS.”
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Mar 2022 at 12:26
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Ridiculous idea, what happens if a U20 comes in and knocks out or hospitalises one of the females.

Cycling do not even think it is fair a Transgender cyclist competing with a woman.

Emily Bridges: Transgender cyclist will not race in women's National Omnium event https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

“Men typically have between 10 and 30 nanomoles per litre depending on age and time of day. But a young healthy male's level of testosterone will range from 20 to 30, compared with a female's range of 0.7 to 2.8, according to the NHS.”


I can see the possible attraction for England's Ladies team, however a training session possibly but not a full on match
RAID ON
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WESTCOMBE RANGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Apr 2022 at 07:44
In Australia (Brisbane to be exact) I watched my offspring compete at Netball, where mixed teams were allowed. The ruling was that 2 males were allowed within the team of 7 players. No quarters were asked or given.
Whilst Netball is considered a " NON-CONTACT " sport, accidental collisions  and injuries are common, whether mixed or not. I found it interesting and it seemed to work well, but as for Rugby it's a total non-starter for me.
Incidentally, about twenty five years ago, Westcombe Park Netball Club challenged their men to a friendly boxing day fixture, and yes we were thrashed

The older I get, the better I was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Apr 2022 at 10:20
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Ridiculous idea, what happens if a U20 comes in and knocks out or hospitalises one of the females.

Cycling do not even think it is fair a Transgender cyclist competing with a woman.

Emily Bridges: Transgender cyclist will not race in women's National Omnium event https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/60934099

“Men typically have between 10 and 30 nanomoles per litre depending on age and time of day. But a young healthy male's level of testosterone will range from 20 to 30, compared with a female's range of 0.7 to 2.8, according to the NHS.”

Transgender rugby players is a whole other subject. In this current time 'exceptance'  and  'equality' and not upsetting any group/ collective of people is paramount. Any other opinions that disagree are in the whole censored, shut down or shot down.

The transgender cyclist banned from competing in a womens cycling race is the correct move in my opinion.  A  transgender person identifying has a male ( originally born a female ) should be allowed to play against men in rugby. The reverse , born male but now identifying as female should not. 
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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