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Understanding the Rules of Engagement |
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5043 |
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Posted: 29 Dec 2023 at 13:05 |
There is a battle coming for the very existence of club rugby in England. The Executive Management of the RFU want to direct the majority of the RFU's available resources towards the 11 Premiership clubs and even more shockingly appear to want to push resources towards the 4 failed clubs Wasps, Worcester, London Irish and Jersey.
This is wrong in so many ways. These clubs didn't just fail through a marginal shortfall, they went spectacularly bust. What right headed organisation would feel it was right and proper to divert resources away from the other 2,000+ hard pressed rugby clubs to assist in the re launch of these parasitical ventures that have previously collectively received many tens of millions of public and rugby monies. However loathsome and repugnant these proposals from the Executive Management are they may win because of apathy from the Constituent Bodies and their member clubs. In order to fight against this we need to Understand the Rules of Engagement. This is the only way we can win. I have to confess I only have a hazy idea what these are and where in the RFU's constitutional labyrinth they can be found. The billionaire owners of the Premiership clubs are in the game for profit......it cannot be right that hard pressed community clubs largely staffed by volunteers get nothing from the RFU whilst the Premiership Clubs get ever greater hand outs from the RFU. So I am asking Camquin, FLH, Scrumtime, Workerbee and any other knowledgeable Rolling Maul Posters to set out in detail how the RFU's constitution works and what needs to be done to ensure a more equitable allocation of resources. If we truly Understand the Rules of Engagement perhaps we can put in place a plan to stop the RFU's hierarchy. Edited by Big Eddie - 29 Dec 2023 at 13:07 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Richard Lowther ![]() Coaching staff ![]() ![]() Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6574 |
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To be honest I don't think 1950 out of the RFU 2000 clubs (approx) give the proverbial about the Premiership or Premiership 2 or splitting National 1 or anything else that gets the posters of this forum hot under the collar.
They keep ploughing along with no or little RFU assistance and very little of any proposed changes affect them or so they think. Its that base you have to politicise to get change, show them what they may be missing out on.
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rugbychris ![]() British and Irish Lion ![]() Joined: 02 May 2019 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 153 |
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I'm pretty sure that the majority of all community clubs in England have a low opinion of the RFU. Continued cut backs at grass-roots level have all but ended county community coaches that once used to be seen regularly at clubs. All clubs believe in competition and meritocracy, it's the very foundation of the game.
Personally I don't understand the workings of the RFU and I have read on here that the council doesn't actually control the Executive. If this is true then we actually have an untouchable unaccountable board running the game in this country. However, the RFU are terrified of negative publicity, just look what happened with the tackle height farce. If 1000 club signatures could be gathered to demand an explanation around cuts to grass-roots spending, the breaking of rules around Prem-Clubs parachuted back to Champ level and the gross expenditure by the RFU then news outlets will take notice. The BBC love to kick rugby. |
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5043 |
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I agree Richard. However, to understand how to mobilize interest we do need to fully understand the RFU's constitution then we can be on firm ground.
Caldy and I think Ampthill as well, are clubs that know what levels 7 and 8 are all about and neither have been suddenly promoted. Both clubs climbed their way up through the leagues in a sustainable manner. There will be a lot of Caldys and Ampthills lower down the pyramid that have the same ambition and desire to go as far as they can. The RFU want to deny them the opportunity by skewing the 'playing field' from level to a perpendicular cliff edge that is impossible to surmount..........whilst at the same time giving a truly obscene leg up to 'cowboy' clubs like Wasps and Worcester......... My brother in law the venerable and fair minded Pete Higgins read about Bill Sweeney's franchise plans for Premiership II in the Daily Telegraph. Pete is a Tranmere Rovers fan and only very occasionally watches rugby..........his judgment on reading the Daily Telegraph Article was both succinct and to the point......."it fu***ng stinks, I thought Rugby was all about fair play and respect .....how can the RFU possibly think that this is fair or reasonable !!!" Pete went on to say that in his view (whilst knowing nothing about rugby) the RFU had a complete disregard for the clubs outside the Premiership and were obviously only interested in themselves and their elite friends. Although knowing little about rugby Pete Higgins' was sufficiently apoplectic about the RFU's shenanigans to give an inkling what other fair minded non rugby people would think. In the end this is all about a non elected untouchable Executive Management using cronyism and patronage to reinforce their own position and those of their cronies and acolytes .......the RFU is a 'rotten borough' that needs to be deeply cleansed! Edited by Big Eddie - 29 Dec 2023 at 16:58 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5043 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Se7en ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 497 |
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I have to say I agree with what you have said here Richard. I appreciate that I'm not on the list of those who's opinion or knowledge you sought Big Eddie, but the fact of the matter is that the Champ/Prem 2, and even the cascading effects down on to Nat 1 and Nat 2, has very little to do with clubs turning out week in week out at Levels 5 (Regional 1) and 6 (Regional 2), let alone Counties 1 (Level 7) and below, who are truly self sufficient, and have been for decades. There is no question of relying on funding or direction/involvement from the RFU. I spent most of my playing career (some time ago) drifting between Levels 6 and 8, and I have to say that the RFU, and what they may or may not be implementing in the Prem/Champ, had no bearing whatsoever on my playing experience back then, it was all about the dedicated voluteers/players, or both in many instances, that kept me coming back every Saturday without any thought of 'what could have been' or 'what we may be entitled to'. It was just a rugby club, not a business, that gave me many happy times and I took it for what it was. What might have been just never factored amongst me and my peers, and we got on with it. Naive perhaps, but a lived experience to look back on nonetheless. I'm not saying this was right, or that we were apathetic, but I am saying that we took it for what it was. I would suggest, as Richard has, that there are circa 1900 clubs out there who are still operating with the same mindset, and to put it mildly couldn't give two hoots as to what the RFU and Big Bill Sweeney deem to be the right path to take in the coming months. It is essentially so far removed (for the vast majority of players, coaches and fans in England) that it doesn't bear thinking about. Whether this is the right or wrong outlook is academic, it's just how it is amongst the majority, and why in all likelihood the 11 clubs at Level 2 may well struggle to harness the support of the masses below to enact lasting change across the board. Since retiring from playing I have followed Redingensians, now Rams, on their journey from Level 7 to Nat 1, and am torn as to the benefits of progressing (form allowing) onwards to the Champ where the likes of Caldy and, with time, Cambridge, are finding their feet. I would ask, to what end? I've said it before, the Champ is an odd hybrid of Fully Pro and Semi Pro clubs (the only Level this exists at) with a small fixture list, competing each week for what? There is seemingly no promotion (due to the bizarre MSC), but likewise no relegation or any sense of peril or 'do or die' mentality amongst clubs - and thus detracting from the overall spectacle of the entire competition and what league rugby was founded upon. Essentially playing within a vacuum for want of a better word. Has any of the above assisted you or shed any light on the best way forward for the 11 clubs that make up the Champ/Prem 2? Absolutely not im afraid. However, I'd wager that it captures the general mood amongst the massive silent majority within the RFU ladder, who's week to week fate does not depend on MSC, number of ambulances, amounts of seating, floodlight provision, frost covers and any other such like luxuries. That said, as a fellow life long rugby fan I wish you well and good luck, and I will be interested to see if the Champ clubs remain harmonious from 1 to 11 and what the outcome is if they do indeed stick to their guns.
Edited by Se7en - 30 Dec 2023 at 20:27 |
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Berksrugby ![]() First XV squad ![]() Joined: 18 Apr 2023 Location: Not given Status: Offline Points: 43 |
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Well said Se7en. As a grassroots follower down in lowly Regional 2, the goings on in the lofty heights of the Championship have little affect on what matters to me and my club, and so isn't of consequence. Little if anything will change here, regardless of what new Premiership offshoot is created. I think the 11 clubs as you call them may be fighting this battle alone. Interesting point you make about the mix of fully pro and semi pro sides being in the same league, seems at odds with itself as surely each club would have different aspirations and expectations depending on whether they are a business or not, needing to return a profit at the end of the day. Like I say, I'm far removed from it all, but one suggestion might be accepting that the time has come for the Pro clubs like Ealing or Doncaster etc to be elevated to join the Prem, and the semi pro ones join a rejigged National League more suited to their finances, facilities etc. I.e. a clean break between the elite rugby clubs for business, and the amateur rugby clubs for the community.
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rugbychris ![]() British and Irish Lion ![]() Joined: 02 May 2019 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 153 |
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But it does affect every club and every player. If the RFU can parachute clubs into leagues and demote others at will then what exactly are we playing/competing for each weekend. What is the point in trying to run your club in the best way possible to attract the best local players. Why put so much effort into the junior section to nurture talent that will one day see your club win back to back promotions. Promotion in any league should be sacrosanct.
If winning games is neither here nor there then what is the point?
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Paul10 ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 2023 Location: Milton Keynes Status: Offline Points: 692 |
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At lower level rugby we are very used to variable numbers of promotions and transfers every season so having new clubs dropped in above us really wouldn't rock many boats.
Just last year a bunch of 2nd and 3rd teams were dropped in. All part and parcel of the community game.
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Camquin ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11254 |
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The Chief Executive is officially appointed by the union - in effect by the board - and can be removed by the union. I think means by a special motion obtaining a two-thirds vote at a General Meeting.
The board is appointed by the board and gets to act for the Union. They also get to set their own pay. The council gets to approve nominations to the board. It can reject a nominee - but it cannot propose nominees. There are term limits for board members, but not for the CEO. So essentially there is no way to remove either, and no democratic control. This was the modernization - required for Sports Council funding - that got rid of the 57 old watsits. However, that funding has all but dried up. Edited by Camquin - 31 Dec 2023 at 14:04 |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Paul10 ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() Joined: 24 Mar 2023 Location: Milton Keynes Status: Offline Points: 692 |
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What is the council?
How is that different to the board? And thanks Camquin. Always informative!
Edited by Paul10 - 31 Dec 2023 at 14:25 |
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Camquin ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11254 |
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The council is the elected representatives of the constituent bodies, and has almost no power. The board is appointed, and as all the power. The council appoints three of the 12 members of the board. The council is meant to hold the board to account, but without the power to remove members - other than the three it appoints, all it can do is ask questions. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5043 |
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Thank you Camquin and for all the other posters as well. I have been beset by Covid for the 5th time and I am only just recovering so apologies for not following up. A few posters have made the comment that what happens at the RFU level has little impact on clubs at level 6,7 or 8. I would like to stress that in my view this isn't just about the Championship and Premiership II. I am a Caldy supporter but this isn't why I am affronted and indeed outraged by what is being proposed. My distaste and anger is driven by the patronising self serving shenanigans of an unaccountable over paid Executive Management that has the temerity to act as though they have the divine right of Kings to determine what is good for their lowly subjects.......it is wholly unacceptable and would not be tolerated in any other sphere of society. I hope to be back to full fitness by 6 January Kind Regards to all Big Eddie
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Runitback ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() Joined: 22 Sep 2014 Location: North Status: Offline Points: 1215 |
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Big Eddie I think we all agree with your sentiments 💯, so what needs to be done to remove the current Management?
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Run with it
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Camquin ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11254 |
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You need a cause that 1,500 clubs will back. Frankly, I am not sure that we have one. Remember that the CEO holds the proxy votes of every club that does not actively vote against him. And you need a 2 to 1 vote. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5043 |
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Camquin that is a very important detail and is frankly very alarming. Your post almost signals that King Billy does rule with an enshrined divine right. It maybe that adverse publicity may be the only effective tool in the short time we have available. A few more questions for you. 1. How many clubs are required to vote to call for a Special General Meeting ? 2. I presume the resolutions that the petitioning clubs want to be voted on would need circulated in advance of any Special General Meeting? 3. If we were successful in getting the requisite number of clubs at 1, above would the resolutions be required to be circulated/communicated to all member clubs by the RFU ? 4. Does King Billy also hold the proxy votes for all clubs that do not vote actively against him in the circumstances of an SGM? I know it is a lot to ask but could you also let us know where in the RFU's constitution the effective clause is that indicates (or words that hold this meaning) that "the CEO holds the proxy votes of every club that does not actively vote against him. and you need a 2 to 1 vote". This needs to communicated widely so everyone knows the strength of King Billy's hand. This is all very much worse than I thought and should be something every right minded rugby club and rugby supporter should be clamouring to change! We may just have our common cause......but as ever we need to be on firm ground with this.
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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JohnLowe ![]() British and Irish Lion ![]() Joined: 24 Oct 2015 Location: Doncaster Status: Offline Points: 298 |
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I can remember attending a RFU AGM many years ago and I sat next to a Services representative who showed me a wad of slips enabling him to vote on behalf of all the Army bases each of whom had one. Needless to say he was going to cast all the votes in support of the RFU council of which he was a member. Not sure if things have changed over the intervening 15 or so years.
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Big Eddie ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5043 |
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John, Thank you for your information ........this is what makes the RFU a "rotten borough" it is thoroughly undemocratic and needs to be exposed.
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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Halliford ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4214 |
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That is a good point about the Services Council Reps. The same does go for CB Reps, in my experience. They are often more interested in maintaining the status quo than challenging the structure. I have had a quick look at the RFU website but the Constitution is not immediately obvious. I've got it somewhere so I will have a look.
Coming from a |Club that has experienced Level 2 and, more recently, Levels 3 and 4 we are usually looking up so are interested in this but find our views are not shared by Clubs at lower levels who have shorter horizons. It will be interesting to see whether King Billy or Prince Simon blinks first.
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Camquin ![]() World Cup Winner ![]() ![]() Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11254 |
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Edited by Camquin - 02 Jan 2024 at 15:27 |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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