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Championship clubs in shock over RFU’s decision

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Baggins Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 09:55
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

Surely it's time for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport to step in and overhaul the governance of rugby in this country? It's not fit for purpose no matter which rung on the ladder your team is on.
I strongly advise you to ring them tomorrow and see how far you get.

The idea that the current government could instruct the RFU on competence and decentralising power is at least novel. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bill Sley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2020 at 06:28
The 5 objectives (according to The Times)
1. Make steps towards becoming a financially viable league, given the average annual club loss is £260,000
2. Develop a league where more clubs have an ambition of winning promotion.
3. Increase the number of English-qualified players.
4. Develop future England coaches and referees.
5. Develop a community programme to grow the game in the club’s region

Thanks Islander – I see what you mean by vague……..are they really the objectives that the clubs were asked to sign up to (wonder if anyone who’s seen them can confirm)?
If they were really that vague (not suggesting they weren’t….just incredulous if that’s the case) then it would be a no-brainer to agree to them as a condition to receive the £3m (or whatever) since they would be a doddle to tick as ‘yes’. In fact pretty much any of us on this board could provide the answers.
If the RFU are justifying funding cuts because they weren’t met – the clubs should make public their disagreement and demonstrate that they WERE met.


Edited by Bill Sley - 14 Feb 2020 at 06:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fenboy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 23:31
The RFU screwed up professionalism twenty five years ago and the pigeons are now coming home to roost. The only sport in this country that has the clout to be professional is Association Football, and they are so bloated with greed they will kill the goose that laid the golden egg. Every other sport just begs for scraps from their table.
Look at the 'gates' from the so-called professional Rugby leagues...somewhere between football's Championship and Division One. Yet look below that and I'll wager there's more folk support their local rugby club than football. And that's down to the game's ethos and camaraderie. Something that football will never have for all it's money. And it's time the RFU recognised this and put the support down to grass roots. And not to a bunch of firework fantasists.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 22:34
Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

Surely it's time for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport to step in and overhaul the governance of rugby in this country? It's not fit for purpose no matter which rung on the ladder your team is on.

And you think political interference would be better?

The trouble is there are over 2000 clubs etc who could change the way the RFU is run but then again there are probably 2000 different answers on how it should be run.

If you aren't happy then your club etc is the first port of call for change, get them to call for a EGM etc and try to change things at HQ but don't hold your breath.

You could find the 1976 clubs who don't receive anything from the RFU vote to remove any money your club currently gets and then there would be uproar! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 22:22
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 21:55
Originally posted by Trailfinder Trailfinder wrote:

Surely it's time for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport to step in and overhaul the governance of rugby in this country? It's not fit for purpose no matter which rung on the ladder your team is on.
I strongly advise you to ring them tomorrow and see how far you get.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trailfinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 21:41
Surely it's time for the Department of Culture, Media and Sport to step in and overhaul the governance of rugby in this country? It's not fit for purpose no matter which rung on the ladder your team is on.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 21:35
Those metrics would be laughed out of the room in the corporate world. My most junior staff member knows to create S.M.A.R.T. metrics to measure performance. They must be Specific, Measurable, Achievable, Relavant, Timely. The RFU fails on most of those counts. If they were a regulated business, then their regulator would be issuing fines for their poor governance 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheshire exile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 21:27
Play offs would surely be preferable to the unloved Championship Cup. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pirate Pig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 21:27
If any fans are interested in signing a petition of ' no confidence in the RFU board' one has been started on the pirates forum.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Pirate Pig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 18:05
In an interview earlier today with Radio Cornwall Pirates chairman Paul Durkin confirmed that the championship clubs were informed by email at 8am on Tuesday. He was in London for a meeting of the championship clubs which the RFU CEO Bill Sweeney and Connor O'Shea were attending in the afternoon. The objectives mentioned by the RFU were an internal measurement used by them to justify the increased funding but have never been circulated to the clubs as any form of key performance indicator.
Pirates owner Dicky Evans has been interviewed on Sky Sports and stated that the handling of this by the RFU was deplorable and was the equivalent to sacking someone by text message. He added that the championship clubs are considering to propose a £2.5M salary cap(which will also effect the relegated premiership side) and the re-introduction of the play offs. The salary cap may be difficult but the play offs can be done by a single vote.


Edited by Pirate Pig - 13 Feb 2020 at 18:06
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Coventrian Man Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 17:01
Bristol and London Irish made scant regard to the English Qualified Player portion of the Championship funding. This was ignored in an effort to gain promotion back to the Premiership 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Brizzer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 16:56
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

For what they're worth, these are the 5 objectives/KPIs, as reported by the Times yesterday:

<ul style="-sizing: border-; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 12.5px; color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: "Gentium Book Basic"; font-size: 16px;"><li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Make steps towards becoming a financially viable league, given the average annual club loss is £260,000.<li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Develop a league where more clubs have an ambition of winning promotion.<li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Increase the number of English-qualified players.<li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Develop future England coaches and referees.<li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Develop a community programme to grow the game in the club’s region
[COLOR=#222222" face="Gentium Book Basic]<span style="font-size: 16px;]my immediate thoughts in bold:</span>[/COLOR]

<ul style="-sizing: border-; margin-top: 0px; margin-bottom: 12.5px; color: rgb34, 34, 34; font-family: "Gentium Book Basic"; font-size: 16px;"><li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Make steps towards becoming a financially viable league, given the average annual club loss is £260,000. - virtually all pro rugby clubs make a loss<li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Develop a league where more clubs have an ambition of winning promotion. around half the clubs have either a concrete plan or ambitions to go up of some sort, in spite of the high barriers in place <li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Increase the number of English-qualified players. all clubs have to field 16 EQPs in each matchday squad and invariably do<li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Develop future England coaches and referees. the RFU chose to hire an Australian head coach and he hasn't dipped into the Championship in recruiting the rest of his coaching team. But does that mean there aren't qualified candidates in this league. Just this week Lee Blackett promoted at Wasps, evidence of the pathway. Loads of refs who've benefited from time in Ch'ship, Luke Pearce the most senior<li ="responsiveweb__paragraph-sc-1isfdlb-0="" yiebl"="" style="-sizing: border-;">Develop a community programme to grow the game in the club’s region. loads of community work by all clubs, too much to list



Well said Islander.
Hardly a failure is it? Especially if parameters have not been put around the objectives.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 16:49
For what they're worth, these are the 5 objectives/KPIs, as reported by the Times yesterday:

  • Make steps towards becoming a financially viable league, given the average annual club loss is £260,000.
  • Develop a league where more clubs have an ambition of winning promotion.
  • Increase the number of English-qualified players.
  • Develop future England coaches and referees.
  • Develop a community programme to grow the game in the club’s region
my immediate thoughts in bold:

  • Make steps towards becoming a financially viable league, given the average annual club loss is £260,000. - virtually all pro rugby clubs make a loss
  • Develop a league where more clubs have an ambition of winning promotion. around half the clubs have either a concrete plan or ambitions to go up of some sort, in spite of the high barriers in place 
  • Increase the number of English-qualified players. all clubs have to field 16 EQPs in each matchday squad and invariably do
  • Develop future England coaches and referees. the RFU chose to hire an Australian head coach and he hasn't dipped into the Championship in recruiting the rest of his coaching team. But does that mean there aren't qualified candidates in this league. Just this week Lee Blackett promoted at Wasps, evidence of the pathway. Loads of refs who've benefited from time in Ch'ship, Luke Pearce the most senior
  • Develop a community programme to grow the game in the club’s region. loads of community work by all clubs, too much to list


Edited by islander - 13 Feb 2020 at 16:51
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 15:34
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 "You have endeavoured to make a massive mammary of yourself and have done so with much aplomb" .... Well I did that for 21 years in The Premiership, so why stop now??




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 15:02
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 
373 here is your quote in full on this one, don't want to appear to be cherry picking ....


1) The East stand went over budget by £32 million pounds, that is 62% out, yes it will recoup it's costs EVENTUALLY but I wonder how long and only by charging vastly over priced rates to CORPORATE clients, whilst grass roots supporters are in the gods of the stadium watching white dots run around ...
So it will re-coup the money, gracious of you to say so. Unlike the money which has been poured into the Championship which resides in banks in Cape Town, Wellington, Brisbane, Dublin et al.

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 
2) Please elaborate on "very poor investment choices"???
Oh dear, I thought you knew everything and had a huge grasp of the real world. It seems that isn't the case. If you don't know, it's an indication of your general lack of knowledge of the wider game and the issues surrounding it.

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

3) "led to increased numbers of minis entering the game", just where do you pull that statement from? The WC only finished 2 months ago, there can have been no accurate data collection? Your local club is not an indicator for the rest of the country.
Not just my club, but numerous others, schools. The WC saw an influx of kids coming into the game. There's no data on it yet, but I'd be more than confident  of the data showing just that. It's also interesting that, if I recall correctly, a lot of that overspend was funded by donors outside the game. So it didn't come from the RFU coffers. https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/11816784/will-carling-secured-funding-to-help-england-with-world-cup-challenge

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

4) "World Cup run" .... we lost, end of, I think Mr.Jones stated on a number of occasions "judge me on the World Cup", I have, in professional sport, first is everywhere, second is no where ...

So, what happens to the SECOND tier of Professional Rugby Clive? Pull all the funding completely? Following that asinine logic, its the only valid step.

You have endeavoured to make a massive mammary of yourself and have done so with much aplomb.  


"You have endeavoured to make a massive mammary of yourself and have done so with much aplomb" .... Well I did that for 21 years in The Premiership, so why stop now??



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 13:11
Originally posted by Bill Sley Bill Sley wrote:

Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

You're missing the point somewhat Bill...

The 5 objectives were listed in national media coverage yesterday as part of the RFU's leak on Tuesday PM ahead of the official announcement yesterday AM. They included the clubs in GKIPAC not having become sustainable - well nor are the Prem clubs - and not developing English-qualified players for the Prem and national side - in fact there's a huge list of players who've made that move.

And besides, as pointed out by multiple well-placed senior sources from the clubs, these objectives weren't made clear, and they weren't monitored as an ongoing assessment such as any normal business would do with key performance indicators on a monthly/quarterly/annual basis. They were then wheeled out at a convenient stage in an attempt to justify a premeditated course of action - news that was delivered less than 3 months before the end of the current season.

And besides, as you say, the RFU should have a wider purpose to represent club rugby rather than act as a venture capital/ return-on-investment type organisation...

And besides, if somebody or some organisation is determined not to do something, they'll find an excuse, or more likely a multiple layer of excuses, not to do so. The RFU was clearly set on this course of action and then came up with an 'excuse framework' in which to set it.


Thanks Islander - I don't think I missed the point (might have done) but more I missed the coverage in yesterdays papers. Are you saying that the clubs DID achieve the 5 objectives or didn't?

I don't have the 5 in front of me, but have mentioned 2 above, one of which - the sustainability one - was unsurprisingly 'missed' as there are hardly any sustainable business models at the top level, and the other covers the development of players - well there's a long list of players but the RFU chose to twist this by saying that only one of current squad - Harry Williams - was discovered at level 2.

The points I think that - with respect - you are missing are:
  • that these objectives were never monitored/assessed - most senior figures at the clubs didn't even know about them
  • the RFU has come up with reasons to suit a premeditated agenda to slash funding, so in a sense it doesn't matter what the objectives are, whether they were met, whether anyone knew about them and whether they were monitored, they were going to slash funds anyway and had to come up with some form of 'rationale' to try and justify this...

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 373 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 12:57
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 
373 here is your quote in full on this one, don't want to appear to be cherry picking ....


1) The East stand went over budget by £32 million pounds, that is 62% out, yes it will recoup it's costs EVENTUALLY but I wonder how long and only by charging vastly over priced rates to CORPORATE clients, whilst grass roots supporters are in the gods of the stadium watching white dots run around ...
So it will re-coup the money, gracious of you to say so. Unlike the money which has been poured into the Championship which resides in banks in Cape Town, Wellington, Brisbane, Dublin et al.

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 
2) Please elaborate on "very poor investment choices"???
Oh dear, I thought you knew everything and had a huge grasp of the real world. It seems that isn't the case. If you don't know, it's an indication of your general lack of knowledge of the wider game and the issues surrounding it.

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

3) "led to increased numbers of minis entering the game", just where do you pull that statement from? The WC only finished 2 months ago, there can have been no accurate data collection? Your local club is not an indicator for the rest of the country.
Not just my club, but numerous others, schools. The WC saw an influx of kids coming into the game. There's no data on it yet, but I'd be more than confident  of the data showing just that. It's also interesting that, if I recall correctly, a lot of that overspend was funded by donors outside the game. So it didn't come from the RFU coffers. https://www.skysports.com/rugby-union/news/12504/11816784/will-carling-secured-funding-to-help-england-with-world-cup-challenge

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

4) "World Cup run" .... we lost, end of, I think Mr.Jones stated on a number of occasions "judge me on the World Cup", I have, in professional sport, first is everywhere, second is no where ...
So, what happens to the SECOND tier of Professional Rugby Clive? Pull all the funding completely? Following that asinine logic, its the only valid step.

You have endeavoured to make a massive mammary of yourself and have done so with much aplomb.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PlangentThrowback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 12:06
As usual the Championship is blaming the RFU when it ought to be sharing part of the blame.  Cuts to lower levels never got a mention by the clubs whilst they happily took the RFU's shilling.  The Championship does so little to help itself collectively preferring to take handouts rather than develop itself (a few clubs have taken steps to build facilities and processes I agree) in commercial terms.
Everyone knew the current funding round was coming to an end.  There was no guarantee that funding would increase, or even be maintained, in the new one.  Given the RFU's financial state it was always likely to be reduced.  What actual plans did the Championship have in place to address these possibilities?  Other than to be outraged that is.  As for the so-called plan issued by a few clubs, it has little in the way of concrete proposals and is really nothing more than a statement, with pretty pictures, that they are going to think about what to do in the near future. They should have been thinking about it before.  The 'proposal' (code for 'making it up as we go along' for a third tier European competition including the French D2 has absolutely no detail whatsoever.  What incentive can the Championship possibly offer those clubs when it is already claiming to have no money.  Nothing is addressed, just a few vague ideas.  Sadly, all too symptomatic of the Championship.
The RFU has never had a clue about what to do with the Championship.  Unfortunately the Championship has taken that as a sign that it didn't need to get its act together either.  The RFU has hardly covered itself with glory but the fault doesn't lie entirely there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Feb 2020 at 12:00
Originally posted by 373 373 wrote:

Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:


If the £3.3 million not being spent on the Championship is spent in developing the sport to be more accessible to a wide range of new players to ensure its survival Id be more than happy. 



373, it's a little while since we crossed swords but I have to say with this statement your naivety of the real world is shown up in all it's glory, these cuts in funding are due in the main to two major issues ...

1) The refurbishment of the East stand going over budget by 50%
2) Eddie Jones going over budget by 1 million pounds per season on a regular basis

The money is NOT going on developing the sport, I would bet my mortgage and life on that! It's going to try and fill the massive black hole created by the RFU's previous CEO and Finance Director, who for some strange reason are no longer with the company, I can't think why that is ......


If you're going to try and be a smart alec, at least engage with a whole post rather than cherry pick quotes so you look like billy big ones on the internet. 

There is a funding gap created by some very poor investment choices made in the past number of years far removed from the East Stand, which will recoup it's costs eventually and the overspend on the International side which saw the game generate more interest during the WC run, which has lead to increased numbers of minis entering the game. 

I'd rather cuts were made in the 'professional' side of the game than inflict more cuts on the grassroots. This is an example of that.
[/QUOTE]

373 here is your quote in full on this one, don't want to appear to be cherry picking ....

1) The East stand went over budget by £32 million pounds, that is 62% out, yes it will recoup it's costs EVENTUALLY but I wonder how long and only by charging vastly over priced rates to CORPORATE clients, whilst grass roots supporters are in the gods of the stadium watching white dots run around ...

2) Please elaborate on "very poor investment choices"???

3) "led to increased numbers of minis entering the game", just where do you pull that statement from? The WC only finished 2 months ago, there can have been no accurate data collection? Your local club is not an indicator for the rest of the country

4) "World Cup run" .... we lost, end of, I think Mr.Jones stated on a number of occasions "judge me on the World Cup", I have, in professional sport, first is everywhere, second is no where ...
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