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RFU confirm plans for NCA Cup competition
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Sid James View Drop Down
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Points: 1645 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 11:40
Originally posted by Monkey Boy Monkey Boy wrote:

If they’ve crowd funded and then claimed furlough then I’d say they are running a professional operation

I would disagree.
If Club members and friends come together and work hard try to replace funds lost due to restrictons/closure, that does note make the Club 'professional'. It does suggest that the Club is proactive and members are intelligent enough to realise that there is a means of replacing lost funds i.e. Crowdfunding.
How much a Club makes from a Crowdfunding site depends greatly on the efforts of volunteers and Club members. Hardly the description of a 'professional' operation/organisation.
As for furloughing players, legal advice at the time suggested that should a Club not furlough contracted players, the Club coud be open to future claims for loss of earnings.
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Sorry if Im being thick 

But I understood and happy to be corrected that Furlough was too be paid for, the suspension of your full time job by the UK Gov until the country gets back on its feet, is that not correct?

Hence why I asked the question re Cambridge match fees to players and the D of R clearly working still for the club, re pod casts etc etc 

But you say that's not the case, as your D of R who works in the City I understand and one of your coaches is head of rugby at Whitgift, yet you can still claim Furlough for them as a part time job?

Does that not leave this open to mass abuse. 
I could work full time during the day, but Ive lost my pub job in the evening, so I could claim Furlough for that loss although I still have another full time salary.

Im really suprised by this, totally understand office staff etc... but the others have come as a shock thats all.


Edited by Scrumtime - 04 Jan 2021 at 10:53
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Points: 4157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 09:10
Just to support Camquin here, Esher are in a similar position. None of our players are on Furlough but all of our staff are and our DoR was in the first lockdown. Subsequently he and the coaches have been working on reduced pay. Our players trained from July to November under the RFU and Government regulations but none are on retainers so none received Furlough through the Club, although many were furloughed through their main employers.

Our Office and Ckubhouse staff continue on Furlough, we have a full range of legal community activity taking place at the Club and they service that to help generate income to keep us afloat. Remember under the current Furlough scheme you can work some hours and receive Furlough money for those you don’t work.
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Points: 4157 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2021 at 09:03
Originally posted by Dagfish Dagfish wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's

There's a page on the RFU website discussing Community Amateur Sports Clubs - see https:///www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/legal-and-administration/casc

Basically, it has to be member-owned, non-profit-making, and must have 50% of the membership participating in the sport.

The Community Amateur Sports Club is a specific legal structure which replicates some elements of the charity structure. It is not the structure used by most Community Clubs. For example, it is not appropriate for any Club paying players.
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Very interesting this, so just make sure we have the facts as I really do not understand this.
How can Community Club. ( as set out above) claim from UK Gov?

The club has a full time salaried D of R, who has  been at the club some 18 months having moved from a National 2 Club, as well as other salaried people. 

It was one of the biggest if not the biggest signer of players close season, not knowing when and if we will play in 20/21 or when we will play again. But players still joining from far and wide, Rotherham, Ampthill etc not exactly local!

It has a full coaching staff, including people working for the club full time on projects at local schools.

It asked for £40k in a Crowd funder in April saying the club would go bust, which it raised about 50% of.
The D of R posts a pod cast/ interview each week so is clearly still working for the club full time.

Now its come to light that the UK Gov are paying Furlough to people/players at the club.

They are not governed by the Elite Sport rule and have been back training.

Yet they claim they are a Community Sports club. How can you be that? 





Edited by Scrumtime - 04 Jan 2021 at 08:59
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Originally posted by Dagfish Dagfish wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's

There's a page on the RFU website discussing Community Amateur Sports Clubs - see https:///www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/legal-and-administration/casc

Basically, it has to be member-owned, non-profit-making, and must have 50% of the membership participating in the sport.


Most rugby clubs meet the non-profit-making criteria
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If they’ve crowd funded and then claimed furlough then I’d say they are running a professional operation
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Sid James View Drop Down
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Points: 1645 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 22:34
Originally posted by Dagfish Dagfish wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's

There's a page on the RFU website discussing Community Amateur Sports Clubs - see https:///www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/legal-and-administration/casc

Basically, it has to be member-owned, non-profit-making, and must have 50% of the membership participating in the sport.

I dont disagree with your basic description but surely a 'Community' Club  is a Club that engages with the local community?
A Community Club should have more than one senior team, ladies teams and have an active Mini Junior Section with boys and girls teams.
It's not good enough to just say you are a 'Community Club' on your website. 


Edited by Sid James - 03 Jan 2021 at 22:34
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Points: 1721 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 19:40
Thanks for the link Dagfish but how do pro clubs manage to 'brand' themselves in that category if its meant to cover amateur rugby? 
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Points: 315 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dagfish Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 18:58
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's

There's a page on the RFU website discussing Community Amateur Sports Clubs - see https:///www.englandrugby.com/participation/running-your-club/legal-and-administration/casc

Basically, it has to be member-owned, non-profit-making, and must have 50% of the membership participating in the sport.
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Points: 1721 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2021 at 14:39
Going off at a tangent slightly but what exactly constitutes a "Community club"? We could all put our own slant on it but is there an official definition?
It does not appear to have any bearing on what level your 1st XV play at as clubs as high as the Championship are, or at least claim to be, a community club (for example Ampthill, I haven't checked for others) whereas other clubs who you took for granted would be community clubs playing at the lower levels yet fill very few of what we might class as necessary criteria. Such clubs just run a pro or semi-pro 1st XV squad and very little else with no lower senior teams and very little activity in terms of M & J's
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Only a community rugby club? Isn't that something to be proud of?

As for crowdfunding surely everyone has the right to crowdfund (for legal purposes) and everyone has the right to ignore it.
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Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:

Camquin: Very interesting post you have put up.

So let me then ask you a question.

Am  I to read from what you have said in your statement that Cambridge have furloughed all their players under contract and are paying them match fees though the UK Gov scheme?



Cambridge who were one of the first to go cap in hand with a crowdfund trying to raise over £40k to ‘stay afloat’.

Quite despicable attitudes from what is only a community rugby club.
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Points: 538 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Welshie7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2021 at 10:41
Championship players were able to train at their clubs whilst remaining on initial furlough scheme without penalty.
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I bow to superior knowledge.

Though I do not see the difference between bar staff and players, both working odd shifts based on when games fall. But as I do not employ anyone myself, I have not spent time reading the regulations.

I know the county cricketers had a problem that if they were furloughed they could not use the club facilities to train - as that would be paid work.
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Having spoken to the powers that be in my old club regularly throughout this, my understanding is that pay to play contracts, match fees etc weren't covered by the furlough. Only those contracted with guaranteed amounts every month could be furloughed. Our Chairman is absolutely on the ball and claimed absolutely everything possible - but as all our players are on pay to play that didn't cover them. I assume that if it had been possible we would have done it. Only the coaches, medical people and bar/clubhouse staff were furloughed. I may be wrong though.
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I am not on the committee.  But that is my understanding based on the statements made at the AGM.
It might only have been those contracted to provide coaching to schools who could be furloughed.

The Vipers academy has continued to operate and the boys are working towards their BTechs, so those coaching there are presumably still working.
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Camquin: Very interesting post you have put up.

So let me then ask you a question.

Am  I to read from what you have said in your statement that Cambridge have furloughed all their players under contract and are paying them match fees though the UK Gov scheme?




Edited by Scrumtime - 02 Jan 2021 at 09:07
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I believe any players who are on contract, and they all should be, could have been furloughed and would have been able to claim based their match fees for the previous months. It might not have been much but better than nothing.
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Points: 3257 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingsheathlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2021 at 07:21
Full time playing staff in Premiership and Championship but doubt there are any below that. 
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