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Proposed " Class Action"

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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 14:58
I have total sympathy with the players and their families.

There are a number of points to consider.
 
A governing body has a duty of care to its players. The crux of any legal case is when did the RFU etc know of the potential for injury and what did it do about it.  If the dangers were known but nothing was done about it then the legal cases stand a good of winning but on the other hand if the dangers were not known and therefore nothing was done because of this, then it reduces the chance of a succesful claim.  For me of us, this is a 'new injury' and not known to us when we started to play - unlike, for example the chances of a broken leg.  Players accept a certain chance of injuries - would they have played if they knew head injuries could cause dementia? 

Secondly is there a difference between playing as a social amateur (pre 1995) and a semi-pro/professional player post 1995 (talking just Rugby Union here).  For the latter the employer has a duty of care in addition to the governining body; but for the former who other than the RFU etc had a duty of care?  Does that duty of care fall upon the coaching or medical staff who may have insisted a concussed player get back into action. How far down the 'chain' does the responsibility/duty of care lie? 

Does the player share any responsibility - for example knowingly playing on when injured?

Thirdly, how do you separate when the damage was done - was it the first injury in a club game as a amateur, or a third knock playing for your club as a professional or a concussion whilst on international appearance.  How easy is it to understand who is responsible?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 14:02
I have sympathy with Sid's view, however there are factors which the governing bodies are responsible for. 

As an example I played my senior rugby in the 70's and 80's when rucking was still allowed and collisions at the breakdown were nowhere near as impactful or violent as they are today.

I doubt whether I would have wanted to play today's game.....I may have concluded that certain aspects (especially the breakdown) were just too dangerous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 13:34
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

The work place has to be a safe place to be whether a factory, building site, coal mine or sports field. The law on health and safety states that "as far as is reasonably practicable", the work place should be a safe place to work, There is also some burden on employees to follow safe practises et.

Which is the killer (no pun intended) - as it also was for the tobacco industry.

Essentially, I think two things are probably true as starting points:

- at some time in the past of professional rugby (or the last years of amateur) no one really knew what they were doing in terms of the long-term impacts.

- while the long term impacts are still contested by some, we're not in the same state of complete ignorance now.

Consequently is going to come down to, as it did with tobacco, who knew what when, and how much was what was known catered for after that point. Basically, what was (or God help us/forbid *is*) the lag between knowledge and practice, and who are the unions, or even individual clubs, therefore on the hook for? 

To Sid's point about choice, it does need to be informed choice. So I think the issue will be, given that they can't as individual players possibly have known all the risks given that the risks are only more recently emerging - e.g. any posited link between contact sport and dementia, or MND - was there a time when the sport either knew or *ought to have known* more than those players, and could they have made it clearer to those players? If so, then the players are probably correct that their choice wasn't an informed choice. 

It's a complete can of worms. 


Edited by billesleyexile - 28 Mar 2023 at 13:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 13:09
The work place has to be a safe place to be whether a factory, building site, coal mine or sports field. The law on health and safety states that "as far as is reasonably practicable", the work place should be a safe place to work, There is also some burden on employees to follow safe practises et.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 12:53
This is a tragic tale. Those looking at needing care in the coming years do have my utmost sympathy but, I would like to understand more on why the players concerned feel that the Governing Bodies are in some way responsible for their condition and, why they feel that the Governing Bodies should shoulder the cost of their care.

Will this 'class action' start with early onset dementia cases and gradually work its way down to the thousands of ex-players who now struggle with daily tasks due to neck, shoulder, hip or knee injuries?

I have genuine fears for the future of our game should Governing Bodies be found to be responsible for conditions or injuries sustained by players who made the personal choice/decision to play Rugby and, in some cases, chose to make a career out of playing Rugby.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Mar 2023 at 09:00

Brain injury claims against governing bodies may exceed £300m


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Former rugby players diagnosed with brain injuries could get millions of pounds from the sport's governing bodies to pay for their care.


More than 200 ex-players have accused rugby governing bodies of failing to protect them against brain injuries.


Legal experts said the claims against the organisations could exceed £300m.


World Rugby, the Welsh Rugby Union (WRU) and the Rugby Football Union (RFU) said they constantly strive to safeguard players.


The class action suit is being taken against all three governing bodies..


...


Crispin Cormack won the league and cup with Pontypridd in the 1990s, played for London Welsh and toured with Wales in Australia.


He now specialises in serious injury cases for Coles Miller Solicitors, including concussion, and believes the claims could reach into the hundreds of millions of pounds.


Mr Cormack said: "I would say a conservative estimate, personally, and I don't know everything about the claims and I've obviously not been privy to the medical reports, but if we take the worst possible scenario, I'd say a minimum of £300m and it could be skyrocketing upwards."


Jonathan Compton, a qualified barrister and solicitor who specialises in litigation at DMH Stallard, has advised large sports organisations in the past.


Mr Compton said: "I would expect any damages, because they affect younger people over a longer period of time, could be substantial."


He said he had no reason to doubt Mr Cormack's estimate.


"Given the numbers involved, I don't think that is an unreasonable figure - you're looking at a substantial number of people," he said.


Former dual-code professional Lenny Woodard, 46, is one of the many former rugby stars who have been diagnosed with early onset dementia.


The Pontypool born star, who won five Wales Rugby League caps and played for Wales in South Africa, now sits on a committee representing players involved in the claim.


He said he faced the prospect of having to retire in the next few years and did not want his partner or children to pay for what could be decades of care.


Mr Woodard said: "I was diagnosed in 2021, slowly but surely I see things getting worse.


"There's a misconception that we're trying to get a pay-out out of greed - but for me personally, and I'm sure I speak on behalf of the others, we're just making sure our families aren't burdened with the cost of treating these diagnoses.


"I'm 46 now, in nine years time, at 55, I'll require full-time care then. If I live to 75, that's 20 years of full-time care. If you're looking at £1,500 a week on current figures, we're approaching millions of pounds.


"I don't want to go into any care setting, and I certainly don't want to be there for 20 years, but that is the reality we have to plan for."

 


Edited by Steve@Mose - 28 Mar 2023 at 09:25
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2023 at 09:19
Brain injury legal action: Former amateur rugby union players state case for claim

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More than 55 former amateur rugby union players say the sport's governing bodies failed to protect them from permanent brain injury.

Lawyers representing the group say they have written to World Rugby, the Welsh Rugby Union and Rugby Football Union setting out their case before a potential lawsuit.

It follows a similar move involving more than 200 ex-professional players.

World Rugby, the WRU and RFU say they are "progressive" on player welfare.

This latest claim involves retired female internationals and players involved in the men's game before it turned professional in 1995.

Former elite youth players and the family of a male player who was found to have chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) in his post-mortem are also part of the group.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2022 at 18:29
We nee d to tone down the language. It’s not a hit, it’s a tackle or an engagement(at a scrum). Let’s stop cheering the dramatictackle which will have injured one of those involved, let’s cheer the pass, the half break and the great run.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2022 at 14:25
But "you've have got to take the hit."

There is no hit, there never was a hit, a hit is illegal.
Any front row that said that should have been instantly yellow carded, as it means were deliberately cheating.

But the referees went along with it, with the backing of the IRB and the unions.

The IRB, the unions, the referees and especially the coaches have got dirty hands.

I know it is not just front rows that have had problems, but they are the majority.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Oct 2022 at 13:38
Steve Thompson: Rugby World Cup winner describes impact of dementia

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World Cup winner Steve Thompson has packed away all his medals, trophies and memorabilia. Since he began to lose his memory, having reminders around is just too painful.

As he opens the box containing - among other things - his 2003 World Cup medal, MBE and photographs of him at Buckingham Palace, the former England international says he is embarrassed by them.

"I feel like a phoney," says the 44-year-old. "It feels like I haven't done it."

What's more, Thompson actually wishes he hadn't done it. Because then perhaps he wouldn't now have early onset dementia he believes was caused by taking hundreds of blows to the head during his career.

"If I hadn't done it, I might not be such a burden on the family," he says.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2022 at 21:06
I believe it is Colchester
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Sep 2022 at 18:51
Essex University pioneers grassroots rugby study

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The effects of concussion in grassroots rugby is to be investigated in a new study at one club.

Researchers at the University of Essex will explore the impact of collisions, head injuries and recovery time across the season with Colchester Rugby Club.

Dr Ben Jones, a former player with Northampton Saints, Worcester Warriors and the England 7s is leading the study.

He said it could "safeguard the sport for future generations".

The university said the technology being used was "cutting edge" and hoped the study could "transform player safety across the globe".
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WESTCOMBE RANGER Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jul 2022 at 21:31
I suffered a concussion during a game in the early nineties. Didn't have a clue at the time how it happened but I was flat out for about a minute ( so I was told) and was helped off the pitch because I couldn't walk. At that time there had been a guideline issued to all clubs by the RFU which specifically stated that anyone who had been concussed should not be considered for selection for the next 2 weeks. I availed myself of this opportunity to rest which at the time was greeted with mixed views, which I don't think need explaining,
It was only a guideline at the time but what it does show is that, even back then, there was an awareness of this issue and I was not playing at a high level ( and never have ) at the time.  

The older I get, the better I was.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2022 at 11:25
Ryan Jones: Ex-Wales captain reveals early onset dementia diagnosis

Quote Wales' Grand Slam-winning captain Ryan Jones has revealed he has been diagnosed with early onset dementia.

Jones, 41, won 75 caps for Wales between 2004 and 2014 and also played in three Tests for the British and Irish Lions.

The former back row said he had received the diagnosis of probable chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE) in December 2021.

Specialists told him he was one of the worst cases they had seen.

"I feel like my world is falling apart," Jones told the Sunday Times.

"And I am really scared. Because I've got three children and three step-children and I want to be a fantastic dad.

"I lived 15 years of my life like a superhero and I'm not. I don't know what the future holds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2022 at 13:33
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

When did this first become apparent? With the advent of the professional, winner take all, aggressive game?

going to tread very carefully here because I've no intention of igniting a code war, but I think it was evident in 'punch Huckleberryly Pear' ex League players right back in the 50s (if not earlier) so probably. On the other hand, and this won't help those being diagnosed in their 40s now, go back far enough and most people were dying before they got old enough to get/show signs of things like this, so who knows? Maybe it has always been an issue in the pro and amateur games to a greater extent than we actually think.

I do worry occasionally that rugby (both codes) has got a pretty finite life left. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2022 at 13:22
When did this first become apparent? With the advent of the professional, winner take all, aggressive game?
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2022 at 08:39
Steve Thompson on BBC Radio 4's Saturday Live

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Steve Thompson: England's 2003 World Cup winner, who has been diagnosed with dementia, regrets having played rugby

Rugby World Cup winner Steve Thompson talks to BBC Radio 4's Saturday Live programme about being diagnosed with dementia.

The Ex-England hooker Thompson, 43, is one of a group of former players suing the game's governing bodies for negligence.

They say repeated blows to the head are to blame for their dementia.

"I sometimes find myself thinking the least selfish thing to do is just to kill myself. That's what this can do to me," Thompson told the Mail this week.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2021 at 11:34
Originally posted by Sid James Sid James wrote:

All I can say is 'Volenti non fit injuria'.
My sympathies with your condition and personal problems but I would ask that please stop this claim as it has the potential to allow the 'PC/Sympathy voting' gang to get involved and ruin the game from which you made a living.

Agree absolutely.

Stick your head above the parapet, expect some return fire. (no pun intended). 

I have limited sympathy for the individual players, to carry on playing after concussions (cf George North) is just f*cling stupid.

Caveat re undocumented injuries/unnoticed concussions. But, if you're off the pitch for an assessment and are told to stay off, give up the game, especially as everything is now out in the open. 

Volenti is certainly now triggered, no claims for new injuries.



Edited by FHLH - 31 Oct 2021 at 11:40
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Oct 2021 at 10:35
I imagine this will lead to more players going off for HIAs?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29 Oct 2021 at 23:41
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