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Proposed " Class Action" |
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6529 |
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I have total sympathy with the players and their families.
There are a number of points to consider. A governing body has a duty of care to its players. The crux of any legal case is when did the RFU etc know of the potential for injury and what did it do about it. If the dangers were known but nothing was done about it then the legal cases stand a good of winning but on the other hand if the dangers were not known and therefore nothing was done because of this, then it reduces the chance of a succesful claim. For me of us, this is a 'new injury' and not known to us when we started to play - unlike, for example the chances of a broken leg. Players accept a certain chance of injuries - would they have played if they knew head injuries could cause dementia? Secondly is there a difference between playing as a social amateur (pre 1995) and a semi-pro/professional player post 1995 (talking just Rugby Union here). For the latter the employer has a duty of care in addition to the governining body; but for the former who other than the RFU etc had a duty of care? Does that duty of care fall upon the coaching or medical staff who may have insisted a concussed player get back into action. How far down the 'chain' does the responsibility/duty of care lie? Does the player share any responsibility - for example knowingly playing on when injured? Thirdly, how do you separate when the damage was done - was it the first injury in a club game as a amateur, or a third knock playing for your club as a professional or a concussion whilst on international appearance. How easy is it to understand who is responsible?
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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I have sympathy with Sid's view, however there are factors which the governing bodies are responsible for.
As an example I played my senior rugby in the 70's and 80's when rucking was still allowed and collisions at the breakdown were nowhere near as impactful or violent as they are today.
I doubt whether I would have wanted to play today's game.....I may have concluded that certain aspects (especially the breakdown) were just too dangerous. |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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billesleyexile
World Cup Winner Joined: 20 Jun 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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Which is the killer (no pun intended) - as it also was for the tobacco industry. Essentially, I think two things are probably true as starting points: - at some time in the past of professional rugby (or the last years of amateur) no one really knew what they were doing in terms of the long-term impacts. - while the long term impacts are still contested by some, we're not in the same state of complete ignorance now. Consequently is going to come down to, as it did with tobacco, who knew what when, and how much was what was known catered for after that point. Basically, what was (or God help us/forbid *is*) the lag between knowledge and practice, and who are the unions, or even individual clubs, therefore on the hook for? To Sid's point about choice, it does need to be informed choice. So I think the issue will be, given that they can't as individual players possibly have known all the risks given that the risks are only more recently emerging - e.g. any posited link between contact sport and dementia, or MND - was there a time when the sport either knew or *ought to have known* more than those players, and could they have made it clearer to those players? If so, then the players are probably correct that their choice wasn't an informed choice. It's a complete can of worms.
Edited by billesleyexile - 28 Mar 2023 at 13:37 |
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keep the faith
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3647 |
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The work place has to be a safe place to be whether a factory, building site, coal mine or sports field. The law on health and safety states that "as far as is reasonably practicable", the work place should be a safe place to work, There is also some burden on employees to follow safe practises et.
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Sid James
World Cup Winner Joined: 28 Jun 2013 Location: East Yorkshire Status: Offline Points: 1646 |
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This is a tragic tale. Those looking at needing care in the coming years do have my utmost sympathy but, I would like to understand more on why the players concerned feel that the Governing Bodies are in some way responsible for their condition and, why they feel that the Governing Bodies should shoulder the cost of their care.
Will this 'class action' start with early onset dementia cases and gradually work its way down to the thousands of ex-players who now struggle with daily tasks due to neck, shoulder, hip or knee injuries? I have genuine fears for the future of our game should Governing Bodies be found to be responsible for conditions or injuries sustained by players who made the personal choice/decision to play Rugby and, in some cases, chose to make a career out of playing Rugby.
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All Knwoing All Seeing
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2761 |
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Brain injury claims against governing bodies may exceed £300m
Edited by Steve@Mose - 28 Mar 2023 at 09:25 |
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2761 |
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Brain injury legal action: Former amateur rugby union players state case for claim
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4157 |
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We nee d to tone down the language. It’s not a hit, it’s a tackle or an engagement(at a scrum). Let’s stop cheering the dramatictackle which will have injured one of those involved, let’s cheer the pass, the half break and the great run.
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11158 |
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But "you've have got to take the hit." There is no hit, there never was a hit, a hit is illegal. Any front row that said that should have been instantly yellow carded, as it means were deliberately cheating. But the referees went along with it, with the backing of the IRB and the unions. The IRB, the unions, the referees and especially the coaches have got dirty hands. I know it is not just front rows that have had problems, but they are the majority.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2761 |
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Steve Thompson: Rugby World Cup winner describes impact of dementia
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11158 |
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I believe it is Colchester
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2761 |
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Essex University pioneers grassroots rugby study
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WESTCOMBE RANGER
World Cup Winner Westcombe Park Joined: 18 Sep 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2299 |
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I suffered a concussion during a game in the early nineties. Didn't have a clue at the time how it happened but I was flat out for about a minute ( so I was told) and was helped off the pitch because I couldn't walk. At that time there had been a guideline issued to all clubs by the RFU which specifically stated that anyone who had been concussed should not be considered for selection for the next 2 weeks. I availed myself of this opportunity to rest which at the time was greeted with mixed views, which I don't think need explaining,
. It was only a guideline at the time but what it does show is that, even back then, there was an awareness of this issue and I was not playing at a high level ( and never have ) at the time. |
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The older I get, the better I was.
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2761 |
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Ryan Jones: Ex-Wales captain reveals early onset dementia diagnosis
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billesleyexile
World Cup Winner Joined: 20 Jun 2013 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 1855 |
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going to tread very carefully here because I've no intention of igniting a code war, but I think it was evident in 'punch Huckleberryly Pear' ex League players right back in the 50s (if not earlier) so probably. On the other hand, and this won't help those being diagnosed in their 40s now, go back far enough and most people were dying before they got old enough to get/show signs of things like this, so who knows? Maybe it has always been an issue in the pro and amateur games to a greater extent than we actually think. I do worry occasionally that rugby (both codes) has got a pretty finite life left.
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keep the faith
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FHLH
World Cup Winner Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5265 |
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When did this first become apparent? With the advent of the professional, winner take all, aggressive game?
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Steve@Mose
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 2761 |
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Steve Thompson on BBC Radio 4's Saturday Live
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FHLH
World Cup Winner Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5265 |
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Agree absolutely. Stick your head above the parapet, expect some return fire. (no pun intended). I have limited sympathy for the individual players, to carry on playing after concussions (cf George North) is just f*cling stupid. Caveat re undocumented injuries/unnoticed concussions. But, if you're off the pitch for an assessment and are told to stay off, give up the game, especially as everything is now out in the open. Volenti is certainly now triggered, no claims for new injuries. Edited by FHLH - 31 Oct 2021 at 11:40 |
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Raider999
World Cup Winner Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Location: Crawley Status: Offline Points: 4434 |
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I imagine this will lead to more players going off for HIAs?
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RAID ON
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11158 |
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I believe these are related to the ones Quins use. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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