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DICKON 
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Joined: 27 May 2009 Location: Roehampton Status: Offline Points: 897 |
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 Posted: 08 Apr 2021 at 18:14 |
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We cannot change our geography but I do think we should be applying a different approach to a re-org in the extremities of the country compared with the hubs. My no 1 issue with the suggested re-org is that it takes a sledgehammer to the whole lot, when large parts of the game are functioning very well. As I say, don't let the RFU dress it up as player lead, cos their own data does not support this, and that data was only supplied by the players who bothered to reply to the survey who are the ones most likely to have something to say. To wit, the Cups - no matter how many players tell you they want a Cup, the evidence of the last decade or so is that when you ask for availability, it is the Cup weekends that the players seek to avoid, hence an ever increasing round of walkovers - moving the Cups to a dedicated period at the end of the season will mean it now clashes with a time when lads seek to take a break. I can only see clubs that pay players seeking to get involved, and I don't think that is what the RFU have in mind...
Edited by DICKON - 08 Apr 2021 at 18:16 |
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everest
Academy player 
Joined: 07 Apr 2021 Location: united kingdom Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 09:29 |
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Dickon - totally agree, certainly down in the South West i know this has been brutal, history clearly shows that at level 6 it is generally the case that one club will totally dominate the league and go through with minimal losses and some significant victories along the way, not 100% sure but last season one league induced over 2000 miles of travel throughout the season, statistically more than Bath. When you look at the level 7 structure below setting aside maybe the 2 top and bottom teams at each level there was not really that much difference in quality, however significant difference in location. Looking at this proposal there is not much difference in total miles all be it the compass has changed. Whilst looking at the big picture maybe a win, however Cornwall to Dorset to Plymouth at level 6 - That is IMHO an unrealistic expectation on the players at this level in this day and age
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Halliford
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4146 |
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Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 13:23 |
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I do recall a suggestion to detach Cornwall and tow it up the Bristol Channel, thus making Cornish Pirates and Bristol a local derby. Can't recall why the idea was rejected!
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oneagainstthehead
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Joined: 04 Feb 2015 Location: West London Status: Offline Points: 725 |
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Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 14:37 |
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Speak softly, but carry a big stick.
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Camquin
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11123 |
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Posted: 09 Apr 2021 at 17:46 |
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I like the idea that 7 second teams will enter the structure in both Devon and Cornwall. I believe there are ten 2nd teams in Cornwall and about 34 in Devon. It shows just how little thought has gone into the new structure. It is a case of something must be done, this is something, we will therefore do this.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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everest
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Joined: 07 Apr 2021 Location: united kingdom Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: 15 Apr 2021 at 14:23 |
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does anyone know what has happened from the RFU on this, if so were there any amendments
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PiffPaff
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Joined: 30 Oct 2014 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 1126 |
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Posted: 15 Apr 2021 at 15:28 |
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Nope, its being voted in or not tomorrow. Massive opposition to lower XV entry but the Council Members will vote the party line which means it will all go thru.
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everest
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Joined: 07 Apr 2021 Location: united kingdom Status: Offline Points: 13 |
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Posted: 15 Apr 2021 at 15:48 |
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In all honesty where we sit in the structure and should it stay as is, it will finish senior rugby as we know it
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PiffPaff
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Joined: 30 Oct 2014 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 1126 |
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Posted: 16 Apr 2021 at 21:03 |
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As per my earlier comment. Done deal. The RFU is broken, Clubs didn't want it but council Members voted against the wishes of their own clubs.
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Halliford
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4146 |
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Posted: 16 Apr 2021 at 23:40 |
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Not quite how I read it!
1 League at Level 3, 3 at Level 4 - as already agreed by NCA Clubs. 6 Leagues at Level 5 and 12 at Level 6, all 12 teams or less and determined by Division Organising Committees. Level 7 down will be organised by CBS, i.e. Counties and may include Lower XVs subject to criteria to be agreed. To me that sounds like CBs taking control of what they wanted. What in that is against the wishes of clubs?
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PiffPaff
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Posted: 17 Apr 2021 at 06:39 |
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Guess the wine was flowing yesterday Halliford.
Points 1 and 2 as you say where indeed rubber stamped and had little on no opposition. As to lower XV entry, I'm unaware of any mass of Clubs in any CB in support of it. I am aware of many CBs where clubs voted against it. However it seems CB Reps where convinced to vote for it by a RFU Committee not by their constituent clubs. If we are truly a "Union" then the vote goes with the majority not the minority and certainly not by a handful of people who think they know better.
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Novocastrian
First XV squad 
Joined: 19 May 2015 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 2021 at 08:38 |
Where is it said that Level 7 and below is organised by CBs? It is currently only L9 and this is still a contentious issue! |
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Camp Freddie
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Joined: 04 Jul 2018 Location: Lancs Status: Offline Points: 153 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 2021 at 08:51 |
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The issue is Halliford that the DOC's will have the decision on the entry of individual lower teams in their areas, however, the criteria these teams have to adher to is written by the Competitions Department at Twickenham and does not allow the DOC's to refuse them. Its a done deal and it will look like the DOCs and CBs are allowing lower teams in even though in the case of Lancashire 92% voted against it. When it all goes mountain pepper up the Teflon Competitions Department will point the finger at the CBs and say "wasn't us Guv" At least our Council Members stood by their clubs decision and voted against. I understand that Middlesex at their recent clubs meeting had a vote and it was 80% against but all 5 Members connected with Middlesex voted to approve it. Hope the clubs remember that next time re-elction comes around.
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The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
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373
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Joined: 23 Jun 2016 Location: Norweb Status: Offline Points: 202 |
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Posted: 17 Apr 2021 at 09:58 |
In which case the 92% of teams in Lancs that were against it, can in fact not enter their 2XV teams into the leagues and keep them in the NOWIRUL/Lancs Leagues? Even the teams that could potentially put teams in - Sedgley/Preston/Fylde etc. Is playing Lv7 teams really going to benefit them or might they continue with current arrangements which let them play teams of a similar standard - i know from past experiences that the 2XVs of these teams are probably situated at a level 5 standard..
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PiffPaff
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Posted: 17 Apr 2021 at 10:15 |
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373, if only it was that simple.
Its my understanding that at least 4 of the top 5 placed sides in the NOWIRUL Premier 2019/20 have expressed their wish to enter the RFU Leagues should the situation arise, which it now has. So 40% of those Clubs in the top Division of the NOWIRUL structure will leave and a hole will need to be filled. Then of course its not just 2nd XVs who can enter its "lower XVs" so Clubs might want to put their 3rd Xv in as well. More holes. It will lead to a uneven structure not just in the North West but the whole country. Of course you are correct in saying that those who voted against don't have to enter their lower XVs, but if more and more clubs do then aren't you left in the most Hobson of choices?
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Thatbloke
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Joined: 02 Sep 2017 Location: Newport Status: Online Points: 1716 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2021 at 12:25 |
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In attempting to solve a problem (basically the amount of travel and the continuing reductions in RFU subsidies to pay for that travel) they have created exactly the same problem in a different format. I think it is generally accepted by ambitious clubs that if you progress up the Leagues then more travel and costs are part and parcel of that success and which inevitably leads to increased player payments to cover the substantial level of commitment required. (No doubt alikadoos will come on here saying they've got to Level X and they don't pay anyone more than threepence h'apenny a game but let's not be kidding anyone)
This is the new problem that they have created and it kicks in at Level 4 downwards. Increasing the number of Leagues at Level 4 (and 5, and 6, and 7 etc etc) means that clubs get sucked up the pyramid that don't particularly aspire to play at those levels - some do, accepted but the majority don't! RFU have said More Leagues = Less travel but it hasn't been thought through (nothing new there!) and all they have done is re-arrange the deck chairs on the Titanic
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Camquin
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Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11123 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2021 at 13:42 |
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A wider flatter pyramid can mean less travel for all, but you do really need t change the slope from two leagues feeding one to three leagues. But that seemingly would be too radical a change as it would tear up the Divisions and probably the current CBs. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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workerbee
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Joined: 20 May 2009 Location: Wirral Status: Offline Points: 883 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2021 at 18:07 |
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Not everybody is in agreement with theory of less travelling. Ask Chester who will be in the Southwest league with Redruth, The boundary on the south west league is no up to Manchester and Liverpool, So even club like Caldy are on the boundary.
As for 2nd XV entering into the league at level on proposal puts at least three Cumbrian clubs into that league and possibly an Isle of Mann club, not many 2nd XV teams are required to fly!!
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Halliford
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4146 |
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Posted: 18 Apr 2021 at 19:17 |
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Workerbee, no decision has yet been made about the structure of the Leagues at Level 4. The League structure in this thread is based on the wrong season finishing positions and is prepared by a CB not the NCA. I think it is worth waiting for the NCA to do their work on how the Leagues are structured.
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PiffPaff
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Posted: 19 Apr 2021 at 09:19 |
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Halliford, think you will find the RFU Council voted on the structure and that structure is what you'll get come the 22/23 season. Not even the NCA will be able to change anything. The only anomaly is whether the Prem goes to 14 (i,e Sarries and/or one from Ealing, Donny, Pirates) That means two Nat 1 clubs will be invited to join the Championship at the end of next season (Scottish having already come back in) to make 12.
Chester's inclusion in the South West Nat 2 is based on geography first, league position 2nd. If Chester don't want to go to Redruth in 22/23 then they need to get promoted to Nat 1 or relegated to the North Premier at the end of next season.
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Halliford wrote: