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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 08:50
And there you have the debate in two posts.
Level 6 and below have cup games (actually a pool system rather than a knock out) to make up for reduced league games.  Which to my mind completely negates the core principle that clubs wanted fewer games and less travel.

So if Esher II enter the league pyramid, rather than staying in the Shield, they would be capped at level 7 and would have a cup. Esher III would be therefore capped at level 8 - as the RFU does not trust clubs to have two teams in one league - apart from the Shield.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 10:21
What is a bigger issue is how they split Level 4 into 3 leagues , so far it would appear to be North, South West and South East. This is to "reduce" travelling. However what it becoming apparent is where the line is drawn for the Northern league. Early indications show Chester in the South west League! which would include Redruth and currently Plymouth are in the bottom 3 on Nat 1 , I am sure they will escape the drop but it would be possible for Nat 2 SW could include Redruth and Plymouth , good luck to any Northern club drawn into this league!!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 11:17
With respect, all the Cup memories so far are from the last century when there were fewer League games and Cups were still more important than Leagues. Look at the existing Cups and the number of WOs when teams pull out.

I do believe the Level 4 Leagues need to based on travel arteries. I have already suggested Leagues based on the M1, the M5/6 and the M62. The problem will be the imbalance of Clubs in those areas. Esher would have easier travel using the M4 and M40 than the M1 but few would suggest us going to the West. 

The structure we get won’t please everyone, but neither does the current structure, and it will take time to bed in. If only we could detach Devon and Cornwall and move them further up the Bristol Channel! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheshire exile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 11:23
It’s not just the South West that is a travel issue. For example Bury St Edmunds are in Nat2 South. Getting to and from Chester ( and certainly Hinckley) from the south west is much easier than getting from the latter to East Anglia.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 11:54
The problem with England is that it is close to being an equilateral triangle. 
And a lot of the premier clubs are in the corners, Tynedale, Canterbury and Redruth.
We have seen one version of possible league structure - as I understand this is not final, especially below level 4.
The clubs to be divided between the three divisions will change - Redruth might get promoted.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 12:04
I have similar recollections of either playing in, or watching famous cup wins in front of big crowds and yes they were fantastic days, the ones you tend to smile about when the memory fades. Yet we all forget there were no Leagues in these days so not surprising that it's the "Cup days" that stand out. Fixtures were arranged by mutual agreement by Hon Fix Sec and it was extremely difficult for any up and coming ambitious club to arrange games against the big boys (as perceived by themselves as a very select clique)
So yes, remember and enjoy the good old days but Cup competitions are only of any significance if clubs take them seriously - evidence in today's times suggests 99% of them don't so absolutely pointless pursuing them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 13:01
I don't think the introduction of league rugby killed Cups.
We (WRFC) were still fiercely competing in the Surrey Cup during the 1990's.
What changed that was the number of league games increasing when leagues went home & away in 2000. London 1 went from 16 league games a season to 20, and then subsequently 22 & 26 etc. Too much league rugby squeezed out Cup rugby.
If thenumber of league Saturdays is reduce there is no reason why proper cup rugby can't be revived.
Players want to win leagues, win cups and get representative honours - we as clubs should enable that IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 13:25
Originally posted by @boatyjames @boatyjames wrote:

I don't think the introduction of league rugby killed Cups.
We (WRFC) were still fiercely competing in the Surrey Cup during the 1990's.
What changed that was the number of league games increasing when leagues went home & away in 2000. London 1 went from 16 league games a season to 20, and then subsequently 22 & 26 etc. Too much league rugby squeezed out Cup rugby.
If thenumber of league Saturdays is reduce there is no reason why proper cup rugby can't be revived.
Players want to win leagues, win cups and get representative honours - we as clubs should enable that IMO.


But you are missing the point.

Most supporters like the 16 team leagues as currently present in the National leagues.

However, apparently players and DORs voted to reduce the number of games - hence the reduction to 14 teams per league. The introduction of cups at that level negates the requested reduction in games.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 14:00
Is it a game designed for the players or the supporters?
I suspect most players would be happy with 12 team leagues, a decent cup competition and proper representative rugby at the end of each season. You wouldn't have to start the season until Mid September and if you get knocked out of the cup early you have a few more weekends to rest weary bodies.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Golden Jackal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 15:06
spot on!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Golden Jackal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 15:07
Apologies....ref That Bloke...
I have similar recollections of either playing in, or watching famous cup wins in front of big crowds and yes they were fantastic days, the ones you tend to smile about when the memory fades. Yet we all forget there were no Leagues in these days so not surprising that it's the "Cup days" that stand out. Fixtures were arranged by mutual agreement by Hon Fix Sec and it was extremely difficult for any up and coming ambitious club to arrange games against the big boys (as perceived by themselves as a very select clique)
So yes, remember and enjoy the good old days but Cup competitions are only of any significance if clubs take them seriously - evidence in today's times suggests 99% of them don't so absolutely pointless pursuing them

spot on!

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 19:23
Originally posted by Golden Jackal Golden Jackal wrote:

Apologies....ref That Bloke...
<span style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">I have similar recollections of either playing in, or watching famous cup wins in front of big crowds and yes they were fantastic days, the ones you tend to smile about when the memory fades. Yet we all forget there were no Leagues in these days so not surprising that it's the "Cup days" that stand out. Fixtures were arranged by mutual agreement by Hon Fix Sec and it was extremely difficult for any up and coming ambitious club to arrange games against the big boys (as perceived by themselves as a very select clique)</span><div style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">So yes, remember and enjoy the good old days but Cup competitions are only of any significance if clubs take them seriously - evidence in today's times suggests 99% of them don't so absolutely pointless pursuing them
<div style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">
<div style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">spot on!<div style=": rgb251, 251, 253;">


Exactly, using football as a comparison (as they have cup competitions) - for years the league cup has suffered the larger teams putting out second teams at best until the last couple of rounds. This has now spread to the FA cup, once famous for shocks as full strength top flight sides were occasionally beaten by lower level teams.

Nowadays even the lower level teams put out reduced strength sides saving their players for the more important league games.

An example of this was the recent last 16 league cup game between Preston and Liverpool where both sides made at least 9 changes from their previous league games.

Cup games in rugby belong in the past where they should remain - for instance there is now no way a full strength Championship side would be beaten by a Nat 2 side - the gulf in fitness/size/ability is just too high when teams are separated by more than 1 level.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 22:36
boatyjames I suggest it is a game for the players -without them you would have no spectators. 
12 team leagues give only 11 guaranteed home league matches and if you are knocked out in the first round of the cup or are drawn away you have reduced income/increase travel costs.
 A 14 team league gives 13 guaranteed important home league fixtures from which budgets can be predicted and a decent number of weekends off in the season for the players/managers/physios.
Cups were great................. a long time ago.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Nov 2021 at 23:43
Would it be sensible, given the expansion of the Premiership and Championship which was not envisioned when the plans were drawn up, to kill National 1?

I think that 14 team leagues would lead nine down from National 1, to one down from each National 2 division plus the 15th place team with the worse record, or a play-off, and 1 up from each regional Premier League.

This would cut travelling, would put less stress on the need for teams of three, and might reduce the number of cricket scores - though the former Nat 1 sides would rack up a few.

Of course, it does not solve the lack of South Western and Midland sides and the large number of Northern and London sides - so there is still a risk of a sides North of Birmingham going to Redruth - or a Sheffield side travelling to Kent.

It would take a lot of clubs giving up a season in a true National league - would the clubs vote for that? Is it worth asking them?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 15:41
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Would it be sensible, given the expansion of the Premiership and Championship which was not envisioned when the plans were drawn up, to kill National 1?

I think that 14 team leagues would lead nine down from National 1, to one down from each National 2 division plus the 15th place team with the worse record, or a play-off, and 1 up from each regional Premier League.

This would cut travelling, would put less stress on the need for teams of three, and might reduce the number of cricket scores - though the former Nat 1 sides would rack up a few.

Of course, it does not solve the lack of South Western and Midland sides and the large number of Northern and London sides - so there is still a risk of a sides North of Birmingham going to Redruth - or a Sheffield side travelling to Kent.

It would take a lot of clubs giving up a season in a true National league - would the clubs vote for that? Is it worth asking them?


Removing Nat1 will not happen (at least not in this round of structural changes which have already been agreed). A possibility if this did happen would be to have 4 Nat2 leagues SE, SW, Midlands and North. The winners of which could play-off for promotion to the Championship.

But as I said - new structure already decided (with exception of how many new teams are required to go into the Championship - which of course affects everyone below level2
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheshire exile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 18:04
Of course we still don’t know whether the winner of the Championship will be promoted……..
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 18:14
What we do know is that at the end of this season the winner of the Championship will be promoted , Probably Ealing. Once the Premiership is up to 14 there will be at least two seasons with no promotion to / Relegation from the Premiership which a review after. I believe that ground criteria will be a key issue thereafter when whoever comes top of the Championship seeks to get promotion to avoid another London Welsh. I also think that entry into the Championship will also be subject to strict ground criteria to ensure clubs put facilities before playing squads. A sustainable club needs to ensure in future it can support themselves rather than rely on an Individual who has a limited life span.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 19:00
In my experience, what players say they want and what they actually want are not the same thing. Even in an unbeaten 22 league game season, our players did not make themselves available for a Cup Q/F just 2 steps from Twickenham. This lack of support for cups is not based on matches played but on the changing desire of players and a complete lack of support from the RFU imho (who used to ensure sponsors for Cup competitions, which meant prize money increasing with each passing round.) The new post season Cup will see an increase in the amount of walkovers, will wither on the vine and will lead to a further re-evaluation of the league set up beneath L4 as the season will effectively end a couple of months early for many clubs. Whilst there has been a groundswell of support for a reduction in league matches in the National Leagues, this has not been matched at L5 and 6 in any of the presentations I attended on the re-org, which covered 3 different regions of the country. I can also see a big rise in the number of level transfers (or league switches as they will need to be known) as there are no longer even numbers of leagues to flow down/up at L4-6. This will increase the number of appeals we will see (yes, I am dull enough to have mapped this out and I come up with different leagues on each occasion). I hope the RFU are utilising local knowledge to decide who ends up in which leagues at the seasons end, but I am not holding my breath. This longest of pre seasons ever is a last hurrah for a decent league structure for a while - its going to take some time to sort out the mess that the re-org will bring, but mark my words, it will be a mess.

Edited by DICKON - 03 Nov 2021 at 19:00
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Nov 2021 at 19:41
Maybe all leagues below level 4 should also be 14 teams - without cups - then all teams know what their situation is irrespective of the level they are at?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 09:56
I should add as well that by reducing the number of promotions by removing the Play Offs at L4-6 large numbers of league matches will become meaningless from around half-way thru seasons as the aperture to promotion narrows and clubs can quickly find themselves unlikely to be either promoted or relegated. An early end to the season with a Cup competition that few clubs (or players) want and an even earlier end to meaningful, competitive league rugby is not a recipe for maintaining interest in adult male club rugby let alone increasing it. The re-org may save my club from the spectre of relegation this season but it is not going to reverse the decline in playing numbers and may well do more damage still - thankfully, a review of the re-org is written in after 3 seasons but that's a long time to wait...
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