National League Rugby Discussion Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > National 2
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Relegation
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Relegation
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
Author
Message
  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
@boatyjames View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 12:39
Cup rugby should clearly be spread through a season so that leagues culminate in early April and cups shortly thereafter. And players really don't need to play every Saturday, a few more breaks might entice back some of those players we have lost due to COVID. Some key players have found other things to do on a Saturday and aren't coming back to our game to commit to 26 League Saturdays.

I don't buy this "players just aren't interested" line, it is the same line some used to try and kill off county rugby. When a meaningful county competitive structure with good coaching was re-established nearly all our players were keen to get representative honours and committed themselves to the program.
Back to Top
DICKON View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 27 May 2009
Location: Roehampton
Status: Offline
Points: 897 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 13:19
Agree on spreading the cup thru the season James but County cups have also withered in recent decades with only a few counties still running meaningful competitions. There has to be some reason cups are not supported by players and it can't all be down to how many matches they play because at every level the national cups have seen increasing numbers of walkovers.
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 14:02
Originally posted by DICKON DICKON wrote:

Agree on spreading the cup thru the season James but County cups have also withered in recent decades with only a few counties still running meaningful competitions. There has to be some reason cups are not supported by players and it can't all be down to how many matches they play because at every level the national cups have seen increasing numbers of walkovers.


Cups are a thing of the past - even Yorkshire cup has so many walk overs it is barely worth playing it.

League Rugby has become the main thing - spread Cups through the season would just mean a week off for many players and under strength teams contesting those matches actually played.
RAID ON
Back to Top
@boatyjames View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 14:57
Not our experience Dickon. We provided numerous players to Surrey post season in the last 10 years and they all enjoyed and benefitted from the experience. It did tail off a bit just pre COVID but that was more to do with the coaching set-up at Surrey than the competition itself.
Representative Rugby gives players an opportunity to shine on a bigger stage and I see two of those players are now in the pack at Rosslyn Park and one is scrum half/wing for Raiders. But I am talking as someone associated with an N3 club and I can see that lower down the structure cups that you have no chance of winning or that aren't meaningful will be an issue. But that is fixable with a bit of imagination.
How about a divisional cups for N3-N1 clubs and County cups for all below that level?
Back to Top
workerbee View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 20 May 2009
Location: Wirral
Status: Offline
Points: 883 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 15:47
I find it interesting to see that players want less rugby, for those clubs who pay players on a with a match fee it will mean 4 less pay days , which will benefit the clubs budget plus two less travel costs (Especially Now the RFU are not funding travel or overnight stays) Travel for Nat 1 clubs from the North could cost over £4000 per game to travel to London or Cornwall if you include an overnight. 
If you look at home gates for Nat 1 very few are above 500 and some as low as 100. Bar and gate will not cover away costs.
 
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 11116 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 16:30
It is two fewer home games, so two fewer sets of tickets, lunches, bar sales, match sponsors, raffle tickets.

It is two fewer times the fans see the pitch side hoardings, shirt sponsors etc - so the value of those goes down. And yes, I realize that not all sponsors do so for economic reasons but even so.

But it does not reduce the cost of rates mortgages payments, maintenance, etc.

So the amount the clubs will be able to pay per match is also likely to be reduced.

From the matches I have seen, I think gates are down this season - several long time fans have not come back due to concerns over covid.  Statbunker's numbers suggest national 1 averages 533 this season, so slightly down. National 2 averages about 340. As ever numbers to be taken with a whole heap of salt.

Cambridge's lunches are way down - I do not know about other clubs.

Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
DICKON View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 27 May 2009
Location: Roehampton
Status: Offline
Points: 897 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DICKON Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 18:19
County Cups and County Championships are completely different BoatyJames - I am talking about the Cups. I agree the County Championship is a great competition and well supported by most counties.

Edited by DICKON - 04 Nov 2021 at 18:35
Back to Top
@boatyjames View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Nov 2021 at 22:14
The Surrey Cup was and could again be a great competition for junior clubs. It’s not for Esher 2’s or Richmond Saxons etc was always a cup for junior clubs and should be again. If you want to call junior clubs level 4 and below or level 5 and below I don’t mind! Not sure an exiles club really gets it ;)
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 11116 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 00:29
Esher are currently at level 4, and if it is not for Esher II it is certainly not for Esher.
Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 10:43
Originally posted by @boatyjames @boatyjames wrote:

The Surrey Cup was and could again be a great competition for junior clubs. It’s not for Esher 2’s or Richmond Saxons etc was always a cup for junior clubs and should be again. If you want to call junior clubs level 4 and below or level 5 and below I don’t mind! Not sure an exiles club really gets it ;)


As level 4 is in top 72 clubs in the country (currently only 71 with OEs demise) it's members can't be described as 'junior clubs'.

If you want to make it level 5 and below that is up to you. It might be considered the natural breakpoint although I'm sure some level 5 clubs might rail against it.
RAID ON
Back to Top
@boatyjames View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 10:55
I got my levels muddled up - I meant level 5 or 6. So have a divisional cup for N1-N3 and county cups for Level 6 and below.
There is a Championship consultation survey out and about at the moment with a deadline of Monday - I will try and post a link.
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 1712 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 11:58
Boaty - I can only give you an illustration from my own area (North Mids) which is not the strongest rugby wise admittedly and I'm sure cups are "received" differently across the country. 
The North Mids Cup is contested between clubs at Levels 5 and 6. Eligibility varies each year depending on who has been promoted/relegated. There is a Vase and Plate competition for those lower down the pyramid
This year there were 11 clubs eligible, 5 chose not to enter to "concentrate on the league" even though we are in a year of no relegations. The "draw" is then fudged so that clubs due to play each other in the league are drawn together so they can play it as a double header (to avoid w/o or withdrawals)
Two level 6 clubs given byes to the semi final where they will play at home again to help reduce likelihood of withdrawals
Absolute farce and just illustrates what I have been trying to allude to in a previous post
Erm on a seperate note "Championship Survey" - just remind me how long they've had now to try and sort themselves out. Never mind another effin survey - get in a room and thrash it out 


Edited by Thatbloke - 05 Nov 2021 at 12:00
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 13:55
Originally posted by @boatyjames @boatyjames wrote:

I got my levels muddled up - I meant level 5 or 6. So have a divisional cup for N1-N3 and county cups for Level 6 and below.
There is a Championship consultation survey out and about at the moment with a deadline of Monday - I will try and post a link.


N1 and N2 voted to reduce the number of games - I am certain this wasn't to add a cup instead.

No such thing as N3 so not sure what level you are referring to.
RAID ON
Back to Top
@boatyjames View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 14:29
No such thing as N3 🙄 sorry Raider it was called that as recently as 2017, but if we want to be pedantic take it that I mean the 4 regional premier leagues….
Back to Top
rugbychris View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 02 May 2019
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 141 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 16:09
A cup competition doesn't become meaningful just because you play a final and win a cup. It's quite obvious that county cup competitions and also RFU cup competitions are not well received. Its not because the idea of a cup competition is without merit or could potentially be exciting its more todo with the tired and unimaginative way in which they are run. I don't want to be another anti-RFU poster but the answer to engaging with players doesn't have to be rule changes or format changes, rugby x, rugby 12s etc etc

Surely it is more to do with excitement, recognition and achievement etc. I believe you could still create exciting cup competitions, it would just take some imagination and graft. A bit of prize money for anyone getting to the quarter-finals and beyond. Club prizes from sponsors. Try of the round. Competition podcast. Prize for top tryscorer/points scorer etc etc. Limitless possibilities. Or, just do the same thing year in year out and expect things to change.
Back to Top
Raider999 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 18 Jan 2013
Location: Crawley
Status: Offline
Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 16:23
Originally posted by @boatyjames @boatyjames wrote:

No such thing as N3 🙄 sorry Raider it was called that as recently as 2017, but if we want to be pedantic take it that I mean the 4 regional premier leagues….


So you agree then - no such thing as N3 - apart from in the history books.

Edited by Raider999 - 05 Nov 2021 at 16:23
RAID ON
Back to Top
Golden Jackal View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 18 Apr 2020
Location: E Anglia
Status: Offline
Points: 150 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Golden Jackal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 18:49
Sorry Boaty, but I am with That Bloke....Cup Comps are a thing of the past and clubs and players are just not interested!  On my travels both in E Counties and around National 2, I do not hear anyone asking for cups...
The game has moved on and rightly or wrongly leagues are the be all and end all....
The days of a lower ranked club fancying a crack against a higher placed club just doesnt happen....  The gulf between leagues is so vast that clubs simply refuse to play and or travel..... 
In my county the cup is run for teams at level 7 and below and that gets reasonable engagement, but sides above that just arent interested or as before, wont play someone higher than themselves!
Back to Top
Thatbloke View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 02 Sep 2017
Location: Newport
Status: Offline
Points: 1712 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 21:47
Just to add insult to injury the Level 6 club given a bye to the semis of the North Mids Cup (Home against a Level 5 club) have withdrawn from the competition if indeed they were ever in it, not having played a game - fudged double header or not
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 11116 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Nov 2021 at 22:19
From Rugby refs forum - where are you this weekend thread.

Quote Originally Posted by Lee Lifeson-Peart View Post
This weekend.

Yorkshire Silver Trophy - which is quite a nice trophy.

Hullensians (L8) v Bridlington (L7).

Should be interesting - Hullensians 2nd in Yorkshire 2, Brid 6th in Yorkshire 1

Postponed (Cancelled)

I don't know why YRFU persist with their Cup/Bowl/Plate/Trophy - no one gives a toss about them.

Supposedly restructure (if it happens) is to allow for more of these non-games to happen.




Edited by Camquin - 05 Nov 2021 at 22:19
Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
@boatyjames View Drop Down
British and Irish Lion
British and Irish Lion
Avatar

Joined: 30 Aug 2016
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 177 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote @boatyjames Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Nov 2021 at 10:06
I think there is a strong strain of groupthink here and taking the wrong conclusions from the situation we are in.
Why are clubs above level 7 not interested in cup rugby 🤔 could it be that 12 team leagues stop at level 7 and 14 team leagues start at level 6. 4 more rest weekends, fewer injuries, time to enjoy another competition.
Cup rugby been squeezed out by too many league games, it’s as simple as that. It could be as exciting as it ever was and provide variety from the grind of the league.
But I can see from this thread that most aren’t willing to raise their eyes and scan the field!
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.