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Promotion Issues
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workerbee View Drop Down
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Points: 886 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 15:35
Email Received from RFU-

Promotion from National One - confirmation for clubs

Distribution list: National One Clubs – Chair, Honorary Secretaries, Directors of Rugby


In response to understandable concerns, among National One clubs about possible season outcomes as we near the half-way stage, we would like to confirm the process for promotion from National One to the Championship at the end of the 2021/22 season. The Championship will revert to a league of 12 clubs, and there are two possible scenarios:

• If the winner of the Championship meets the Minimum Standards Criteria and is promoted to the Premiership, this would leave 10 teams in the Championship and therefore the top two clubs from National One will be promoted to the Championship.

• If the winner of the Championship does not meet the Minimum Standards Criteria and therefore is not promoted to the Premiership, this would leave 11 teams in the Championship and therefore only the winner of National One will be promoted to the Championship.

There has been some speculation in the press as to London Scottish leaving the Championship and playing in Scottish leagues. There has been no formal application for this, and there are no plans for this to happen.


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Points: 2547 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 14:30
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

RFU have just announced that the Championship will be a 12 team league for 22/23 and subject to the top club achieving ground criteria then 2 sides from Nat 1 will be promoted , if that club should fail then the Premiership will remain at 13 and only  1 side will be promoted. At present Ealing are the team most likely to get promoted from Championship and I would presume that they have passed all the requirements to enter premiership. For some reason, which someone will explain,  the Championship did not go for a 14 team league to bring it in line with all other national Leagues including the Premiership, perhaps it is to do with funding. 
At present there is no application from London Scottish to move leagues, perhaps they are happy to drop through the leagues until they arrive at a league commensurate with their budget. 
With only two maximum being promoted this will leave Nat 1 with 13 so relegation will come into play , possibly 2 down and 3 up or 1 down and 2 up , the winners of each league with no play off. This is still to be decided. 
This decision has come out, with no comments from the two working parties from the Championship , who I believe were in favour of 14 team league.   

Just curious where you've found this? I couldn't find it anywhere?
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Points: 886 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Dec 2021 at 14:26
RFU have just announced that the Championship will be a 12 team league for 22/23 and subject to the top club achieving ground criteria then 2 sides from Nat 1 will be promoted , if that club should fail then the Premiership will remain at 13 and only  1 side will be promoted. At present Ealing are the team most likely to get promoted from Championship and I would presume that they have passed all the requirements to enter premiership. For some reason, which someone will explain,  the Championship did not go for a 14 team league to bring it in line with all other national Leagues including the Premiership, perhaps it is to do with funding. 
At present there is no application from London Scottish to move leagues, perhaps they are happy to drop through the leagues until they arrive at a league commensurate with their budget. 
With only two maximum being promoted this will leave Nat 1 with 13 so relegation will come into play , possibly 2 down and 3 up or 1 down and 2 up , the winners of each league with no play off. This is still to be decided. 
This decision has come out, with no comments from the two working parties from the Championship , who I believe were in favour of 14 team league.   
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Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

On Paper Nat 1 next year could include Redruth , Plymouth and Taunton good trips for the Northern Clubs. 

Thats fine but the issue will be what do Exeter do?  they fill Plymouth and now Taunton, throw Redruth in and even Exeter do not have enough pups to go into 3 national 1 sides. Although Cornish P seem to be helping Plymouth out 
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Points: 6211 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 20:17
Frit? I've always advocated bringing clubs up to make the Championship a sixteen team league.
Ffp doesn't actually block anything.


Edited by Kimbo - 22 Nov 2021 at 20:17
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Points: 2452 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheshire exile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 17:16
Not to mention the much lamented Mount’s Bay’s one season in Nat 1; their first away fixture was at Tynedale….
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Points: 11158 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 15:58
Just be glad Mount's Bat and Launceston are no longer in National 1. But also remember they have to make the return trips.  There was the season where Redruth's closest opponent was Birmingham - though Redruth was their longest trip.

We have had nearly ten years of discussion, and everyone seems clear they want three nationwide divisions. Unfortunately, that means putting up with the country's geography.
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workerbee View Drop Down
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Points: 886 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 15:50
On Paper Nat 1 next year could include Redruth , Plymouth and Taunton good trips for the Northern Clubs. 
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 11158 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Nov 2021 at 14:44
Talk of ground criteria, ffp or any other reason to block promotion suggests certain sides - or at least some supporters - are frit.

Of course, no decision should be being made by just the eleven nine current chairmen. They should be reaching out to at least the chairmen of the clubs vying for promotion - but idealy to the whole of the NCA.

What I would be looking at is whether the Championship could continue with 8 subs, or whether it goes to 5 on the bench and to interchanges - as is currently used in National league matches. The latter could help control costs.


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Points: 3322 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 17:47
Unfortunately FFP would come down to how it’s governed and by whom
So many Christians not enough Lions
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Points: 6211 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 17:15
I've always argued for some form of FFP.
There's no reason that a properly regulated, realistic FFP system can't be implemented, and I'd be fully supportive of that. But there isn't one yet, and the spineless Union doesn't seem to be able to manage its own competition,  so why shouldn't clubs be allowed to at least try? What's more unfair? Limiting clubs by FFP,  or by improbably unsustainable ground development?

I'm certainly not advocating any club throwing the kitchen sink at the playing side alone, but by the same token all clubs should be allowed to at least try to compete at the higher levels, even if they can't sustain it. How do we know they can't if they are denied by imposed ceilings. Ex did.
Yes, many have tried and failed, but that was their right. To try.
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Points: 1829 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote CJB1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 14:28
It has implications for financial fair play, though.  If team A is spending money developing its facilities while team B spends all its budget on player wages and supporters are left standing around the pitchside rope or rail, which side is doing more for the good of the game?
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Points: 6211 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 13:04
It's feasible, but not desirable IMO.
That way lies the 'closed shop' excuses we've had for years in the Prem.
If a side's good enough on the pitch, bring' em up.
If they then fail to thrive at that level for whatever reason, let them drop.
No false barriers in sport please.
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workerbee View Drop Down
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Points: 886 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 12:39
The mistake the RFU made when setting up the leagues and going open was to give clubs funds based on their level in the league structure without making Facilities a key part of the funding . Ten clubs would have had to look at their infrastructure before simply paying players. If that had been the case Ampthill would never have got into the Championship. Nice Club and pitch , just a long walk and cannot host a large crowd. It is still feasible to make facilities part of the promotion process even at Championship and other National leagues.   
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Points: 6211 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 12:09
Why would 'ground criteria' as such enter into it next season when it hasn't before?
Apart from a fence around the pitch and a certain level of medical provision, which surely wouldn't be too onerous for anyone.
Ampthill managed no problem at all.

Edited for stray word.


Edited by Kimbo - 20 Nov 2021 at 12:10
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The Championship Review reports in January. National League Rugby Clubs have already agreed not to split National 1 but to add a third League at National 2. What happens after the Championship Review decision is then pure speculation, something we all enjoy! Splitting National 1 into 2 doesn't work with 3 Leagues below and most of those National 1 Clubs enjoy the national travel involved. Players want the challenges of playing against teams from different parts of England, however, how long that will last is uncertain.

First step is for the Championship to get itself sorted and probably recognise that it needs to find its own money and TV coverage. Then it can decide if it wants to join forces with National League Rugby and start promoting a product with the breadth to challenge the Premiership for quantity, if not quality. I would imagine that any Championship match played today will be better and more competitive than any of the Premiership Cup matches on this weekend.
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Points: 11158 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 11:28
I thought we had just decided not to split National 1.
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Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Latest informed opinion is that Championship 
In the long run the logical option would be to consider The Championship to be the top of the semi pro Pyramid outside the Premiership and Nat 1 to be split into North and South, traveling is horrendously expensive, with perhaps a play off for promotion into the Championship. Long term we have to look at how we travel given all transport will have to become electric and costs will become even more prohibitive. Reality will have to be accepted.      

WB 

I have heard the same on the National One potential split which has been on the table for sometime. 

Is it still January for confirmation ? 

All the best 

ST


Edited by Sedge Tiger - 20 Nov 2021 at 11:27
Give him one with handles on
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Points: 11158 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 10:37
Is the gap really that big?
Even if it is now, would it continue, especially given the cut in funding?
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Points: 886 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Nov 2021 at 10:18
Latest informed opinion is that Championship are considering 14 team league with the probability of London Scottish either being relegated or moving to Scottish league funded by SRU. 
That would mean 5 promoted!! Not sure if any ground criteria would be imposed, which could be difficult giving some Championship clubs would not achieve it anyway.
This would certainly have a big effect on the structure of the championship given that the gap between top and bottom will be very big , there are some Nat 1 sides who would consider themselves financially ready to compete but the gap from top to bottom would make some matches one sided. 
In the short run Nat 1 would go from 15 to 11 with 3 promoted from Nat 2 N and S. 
In the long run the logical option would be to consider The Championship to be the top of the semi pro Pyramid outside the Premiership and Nat 1 to be split into North and South, traveling is horrendously expensive, with perhaps a play off for promotion into the Championship. Long term we have to look at how we travel given all transport will have to become electric and costs will become even more prohibitive. Reality will have to be accepted.      
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