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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Despite receiving the notification from the RFU confirmed by NCA secretary, nothing has appeared to confirm this from Championship clubs who were discussing the options and appeared to favour 14 team league. However there is still a glaring issue which has not been addressed for any club in the lower part of the league at present, that of relegation. If two go up leaving Nat 1 a 13 team league, then there are two options , 1 down and two up , just the league champions or 2 down and three up. Option one has been done before with only 2 up and no play off at level 4. this happened when the Championship went to 12 teams. 
Surely clubs need to know as it is half way through the season.




12 team league in Champioship means 1 of current 11 up to Premiership + 2 up from Nat1
14 team league in N1 means 2 of current 15 up to Nat1 - 3 up from N2S/N as normal leaving 2 to be relegated as OEs are the 3rd down from N1

I cannot see any reason to deviate from the norm.

As for Championship sides favouring 14 sides shouldn't they have been vociferous on this prior to the RFU decision?
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 15:22
Presumably in future years it will be 3 down from N1 and the 3 champions oat N2 being promoted?
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 11118 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 17:18
In 2008/9 - when Championship went from 16-12 and National 1 from 14 to 16, there were no play-offs and only two up.  That season, there were four teams relegated from National 2 (as was).

As there was only ever a plan to promote two teams, I do not see any reason to change that mid-season.
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Points: 7318 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 18:23
Although there is plenty of support for a 14-team Championship, there's a general acceptance that this isn't realistic for 2022/23 - hence the recent clarification to N1 clubs about 1 or 2 going up.

But as discussed, there is a frustratingly long list of uncertain factors, some already mentioned:
  • could Leicester have the book thrown at them as per Saracens & go down?
  • will Ealing win the Champ & be able to meet minimum standards & 'entry fee' to the Prem?
  • if not Ealing, are any other Champ clubs in a position to go up?
  • might London Scottish leave & join the semi-pro league north of the border?
  • what happens regarding relegation down from N1 & promotion up from N2?
It's definitely not a satisfactory situation, but the perception among NL clubs that most of the above is "all the Championship clubs' fault" isn't really accurate IMHO...
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 11118 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 18:34
What makes a 14 team league impractical for next season, but possible practical in future seasons?
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 20:25
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

What makes a 14 team league impractical for next season, but possible practical in future seasons?


I believe those in the Championship believe there aren't 4 teams in N1 capable of playing Championship rugby, although how that changes by promoting 2 this season and 2 more next ?

apart from having 2 seasons without any relegation and a season with the RFU money split between less teams that is.

As at least half the Championship sides were in N1 or lower in the last decade, but seem to think they are above that now.
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Points: 3320 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 21:01
Always the same forget where you came from. There are teams in level 3 & 4 now that were at L2 while some of the current L2 teams were in divisional leagues or lower
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Points: 4724 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 21:19
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

[QUOTE=Camquin] 
I believe those in the Championship believe there aren't 4 teams in N1 capable of playing Championship rugby,
I fall into that category but I'm not totally put off by the prospect. I fear a quick move to 14 or 16 teams in the Championship may result in a gulf between the handful of teams like Ealing, Pirates & Donny who would post a boring cricket score against most of the others. The close important matches may become rare birds. I fear the Championship may well "dumb down" and the real interest will be at the bottom - who is going down. I favour 12 good teams with a cracking injection of new blood every year by one team automatically promoted and relegated through each of the top three leagues.  It would be wonderful however to visit Mose, Albion & DMP again or one day welcome Mighty Roth back but there is surely enough London centric clubs already represented at the upper levels.
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Points: 1712 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31 Dec 2021 at 22:22
This really does make me laugh - do you not realise you are arguing in favour of exactly what you have been complaining about? It's not right for the Prem clubs to claim elitism or demand ring fencing yet you don't think 2, 3, 4 or however many are required from Nat1 will be upto your ever so high standards. Absolute codswallop

Edited by Thatbloke - 31 Dec 2021 at 22:22
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Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

This really does make me laugh - do you not realise you are arguing in favour of exactly what you have been complaining about? It's not right for the Prem clubs to claim elitism or demand ring fencing yet you don't think 2, 3, 4 or however many are required from Nat1 will be upto your ever so high standards. Absolute codswallop
You do realise that he's arguing for continued automatic promotion, don't you?
Personally I've always argued for two up, two down at all levels, and will continue to do so - but for this season I'd happily see four sides (or however many are ultimately needed to make a 14 team Championship), and would go so far as to wish for a couple of additional sides to come up next season.
Yes, really.
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

[QUOTE=Camquin] 
I believe those in the Championship believe there aren't 4 teams in N1 capable of playing Championship rugby,
I fall into that category but I'm not totally put off by the prospect. I fear a quick move to 14 or 16 teams in the Championship may result in a gulf between the handful of teams like Ealing, Pirates & Donny who would post a boring cricket score against most of the others. The close important matches may become rare birds. I fear the Championship may well "dumb down" and the real interest will be at the bottom - who is going down. I favour 12 good teams with a cracking injection of new blood every year by one team automatically promoted and relegated through each of the top three leagues.  It would be wonderful however to visit Mose, Albion & DMP again or one day welcome Mighty Roth back but there is surely enough London centric clubs already represented at the upper levels.


Obviously without any promotion to the Premiership the real interest will be in the bottom half of the table and who will survive or not - only natural really.

This is why their should not be ring fencing at any level!

You only have to look at the records of Bath and London Scottish to realise that a certain edge goes off their game after a bad start with no punishment (in the form of relegation)
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Points: 6169 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 12:22
Why are you arguing against ringfencing with people who don't agree with ringfencing?

Go tell the Prem cartel.
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Raider999 View Drop Down
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 14:09
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Why are you arguing against ringfencing with people who don't agree with ringfencing?

Go tell the Prem cartel.


I wasn't arguing I was agreeing with you on the ring-fencing point.
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Thatbloke View Drop Down
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Points: 1712 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01 Jan 2022 at 15:41
For the sake of clarity
1) I am fully supportive of the "Automatic Promotion" for league winners at every level - this in itself necessitates relegation unless we have clubs going bust etc
2) I am 100% against any form of ring fencing
The point of my earlier post which maybe I didn't make clear is that we have followers of Championship clubs echoing the above two points but in the next breath saying clubs from Nat1 aren't good enough to be allowed into the Championship - in other words double standards
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Having spoken to him in November, I understand Rowland Winter at Coventry believes there are plenty of Nat 1 teams capable of stepping up. Presumably, he is being outvoted.

None of the relegated Championship sides managed to go unbeaten in National 1. Only four, Esher, Doncaster, Ealing and Richmond regained Championship Status at the first attempt - and Esher had a parachute payment that year. 

We have Scottish being reported as saying they would struggle to put a side that could compete in National One without the RFU funding - I am not sure that they are the only club in that position. The reduced funding is going to further reduce the gap.
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Points: 4429 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 14:15
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Having spoken to him in November, I understand Rowland Winter at
Coventry believes there are plenty of Nat 1 teams capable of stepping
up. Presumably, he is being outvoted.

None of the
relegated Championship sides managed to go unbeaten in
National 1. Only four, Esher, Doncaster, Ealing and Richmond regained
Championship Status at the first attempt - and Esher had a parachute
payment that year. 

We have Scottish being reported as saying they would struggle to
put a side that could compete in National One without the RFU funding - I
am not sure that they are the only club in that position. The reduced funding is going to further reduce the gap.





I totally agree
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marigold View Drop Down
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Points: 430 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 18:18
Jon Inverdale is a strong voice for the Nat League teams. Could it not be that after consultation actually not more than two or three clubs want to be promoted from Nat 1 to the Championship next season which is why they have now gone for a maximum of 2 being promoted at the end of this season. I am sure the current Champ clubs would prefer to play an increased number meaningful league fixtures against new opposition rather than the meaningless cup matches.
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Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

Jon Inverdale is a strong voice for the Nat League teams. Could it not be that after consultation actually not more than two or three clubs want to be promoted from Nat 1 to the Championship next season which is why they have now gone for a maximum of 2 being promoted at the end of this season. I am sure the current Champ clubs would prefer to play an increased number meaningful league fixtures against new opposition rather than the meaningless cup matches.


From what I have read the decision came from the Championship sides - normally only N1 champions are promoted so I cannot see why N1 sides wouldn't want to take the easier route of 4 up if available.

Especially when you look at the travelling in N1 which is at least as bad as that in Championship with the exception of the away weekend jolly to Jersey (highlight of any season?)
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Travelling depends on where you start. For most London clubs travel in the champ would be less thanNat 1. Jersey isn’t that bad depending on flight times you can get 
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Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by marigold marigold wrote:

Jon Inverdale is a strong voice for the Nat League teams. Could it not be that after consultation actually not more than two or three clubs want to be promoted from Nat 1 to the Championship next season which is why they have now gone for a maximum of 2 being promoted at the end of this season. I am sure the current Champ clubs would prefer to play an increased number meaningful league fixtures against new opposition rather than the meaningless cup matches.


From what I have read the decision came from the Championship sides - normally only N1 champions are promoted so I cannot see why N1 sides wouldn't want to take the easier route of 4 up if available.

Especially when you look at the travelling in N1 which is at least as bad as that in Championship with the exception of the away weekend jolly to Jersey (highlight of any season?)
Any evidence to support that?
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