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2XV Teams in National Leauge

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Fulchester Rover View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulchester Rover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: 2XV Teams in National Leauge
    Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 16:54
So in the next few weeks the opportunity will be coming up to enter a 2XV into the National Leagues.
This should mean that instead of clubs having to arrange non-league fixtures there will be a league system for a Second XV, but they could not be promoted above level 7..... so I'm lead to believe ?

Assuming you are a National Two Club and you wish to enter a Second XV into the National Leagues at level 7 does this mean that you are unable to use players from the Second XV league side due to the three league difference ( player safety/wefare maybe) ? If this is the case, how does this assist with an up and down cascade system within the club from junior to senior and visa versa ? What therefore is the point of having a Second XV league side wearing the same badge if they can't share their players within the senior club ?

Can anyone shed any light ??

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marigold View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote marigold Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 18:22
FR I have not seen anything that suggests you cannot play players registered at your club in both the 1st and 2nd teams if they are in different leagues, irrespective of the distance between those two leagues. This is how it is done in the constituent bodies who already allow 2nd and 3rd teams in the RFU leagues
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 19:09
First I have heard of this, however as some 2nd XVs play at lower levels at present there cannot be anything stopping players registering in both levels

Also to be pedantic the National League only applies down to N2S and N2N - level 7 is 3 levels beneath that in the Regional Leagues.

Edited by Raider999 - 02 Jan 2022 at 19:10
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 19:22
In Eastern Counties if the Cambridge and Bury St Edmunds third teams that currently play at level 8 looking for the promotion spot that is now available.
I suspect level 7 will not be strong enough to be meaningful for most National league second teams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 19:22
Agree with Marigold
Sadly all 4 regions have adopted different stances on 2nd XV's entering the league pyramid eg South West - all fine - no restrictions - works well because it reduces travel substantially so understandable. Elsewhere eg Midlands you have to set up 2 separate clubs with a different player base and registration process which means no movement between 1sts and 2nds (which helps absolutely no-one) the exception being if only a gap of 2 leagues players could move between 1sts and 2nds under existing DR regulations
Absolutely barmy!!!
Not sure what the crack is in North and SE?
New proposals make far more sense and should cut down on travel in all areas


Edited by Thatbloke - 02 Jan 2022 at 19:27
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Fulchester Rover View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fulchester Rover Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 20:31
Ok, so the question is, under the new directive from the RFU, is the decision a 'regional' decision to allow free movement of players between their First and Second XV irrespective of which level they are playing at ?
I've heard several arguments that seem fair in light of current safety concerns that it may lead to 'walkovers' or mismatches in player ability leading to possible serious injury in-particular with front row 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 20:47
In the NW I understand its a dead in the water with only 2 Clubs interested in entering lower  XVs. 

It certainly won't entice the adm Lancashire Clubs back and thus it highly unlikely you'll have much of a RFU Level below Level 6 when all the "level upping" has been done at the end of this season.

Yorkshire clubs seem confused as to what it will mean as they, like Clubs in the North West have a semi-decent lower XV League system in place already not sure what effect it would have on the North East Clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02 Jan 2022 at 21:00
The Registration issue isn't going to be an issue from what I've been told.

You can already register all your players you want (higher up the Levels there is a limit) on GMS and assign them to sides within your club 1st Xv, 2nd Xv etc..... any player can be assigned to one or all Teams within your club. Making them eligible to be selected on a EMC whether its 1st XV or lower XV
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Golden Jackal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 10:20
Agree Cam Quin, with all due respect to fellow EC sides, yours and our 2nds would not benefit greatly from playing Level 7 other than the saving in travel time (and money).
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 13:15
In the NW there is a good structured league system for 2nd XV and below , with a few 1st XV sides included. The main problem with the Premier league in these leagues is that apart from the  the top 4 or 5 clubs, there is no real competition with many results of over 50 points and a number of walk overs leaving the top clubs finding it difficult to get any real competition.  However there are a number of issues Outside these leagues, firstly many of the clubs at level 7 and below, within the RFU structure, in Lancashire withdrew from the RFU leagues because of the travelling distances especially to Cumbria, and they will not return if 2nd XV teams are admitted into the RFU leagues. This has currently left the remaining clubs at level 7 travelling to Huckleberryermouth and Keswick for example. One of their arguments against admitting 2nd XV sides is that these clubs will be a draw for aspiring players, to clubs who may pay players as 2nd XV level? 
Counties have opted to give clubs at level 7 the option to allow 2nd XV. I am not sure how that works? Next seasons reshuffle will probably result in level 7 leagues being the bottom league in the RFU set up in the NW which would not benefit any club's 2nd XV especially if there will be no promotion to level 6. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thunderbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 18:15
Fully agree GJ. It is a pointless exercise and will cause nothing but bad feeling.
A nat 2  forward could cause untold physical damage at level 7. 
I can see NO benefit to anyone . 
The old saying that "a team is only as good as its reserves" doesn't seem to register with the RFU.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 22:28
My understanding is that this is merely an option that individual clubs can apply for. As is the general feeling on this thread it is doubtful that Level 3 & 4 clubs will see any benefit but I suspect there will be a much greater take-up by those at Levels 5 and 6 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2022 at 22:49
I have a feeling there is no one solution that would please all the Lancashire clubs.
It sounds like a solution that would work for a club with multiple sides looking for competitive matches for all their teams, would be anathema to a one team club next door.

While half would want a much flatter pyramid, that would annoy several clubs that suddenly find themselves not leaving the county, especially if they then found a second XV in their league.

Even if you could please all the red rose clubs, it could leave the Cumbrian or the Manx clubs without opponents.

And this is probably true in different degrees in every county.

But, it is the CBs - and the Midland DOC - that have been left to sell this mess to the clubs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 15:31
I may be wrong but I didn't think it was a "Everybody IN or Everybody OUT" decision that needed to be made - thought every club could apply if they thought it suited their own particular situation? My own club has applied even though our CB (North Mids) voted against the proposal. We have a situation where our 2nd XV is deemed" too strong" with opponents crying off almost every week for fear of getting a good hiding. Fair enough they conceded the league points but this doesn't get the lads playing as alternate "friendly" fixtures are difficult to arrange at short notice with other clubs already committed on a designated League Saturday. Admittedly we could still get opponents crying off if we go in at Level 8 or 9 but less likely I would say if we are up against 1st XV 's. We also had a situation where over a full season our 2nd XV were actually racking up more miles for away fixtures than our semi-pro 1st XV which is crazy. 180 mile round trip to play Banbury 2nds or 20 Mile round trip to play Shrewsbury or Telford 1sts - surely it's a no brainer and precisely why we hope our application is accepted
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 16:36
And that is the rub, if all the 2nd XV sides from the clubs you usually play join the pyramid, then your 2nd XV will need to join as well - or you will not have any fixtures.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kingsheathlad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 16:46
Looking at The Rugby Paper results, the leagues in South West do have 2nd and 3rd teams in some, but there does appear to be quite a few walkovers for home teams, but that could be down to Covid. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 17:05
Half the sides in National 1 do not run a 2nd xv.
Some do only at the start of the season when they require "squad" players game time.
Most don't from mid Oct onwards
For those that do, they play in Zoo 1, which is classified as level 5, according the referee appointments.

I would suggest, its totally pointless any side at National 1 or National 2 level plying a 2nd xv at level 7.
The jump between the 1st xv and 2nd xv will be too big.

It's yet another poorly thought out fix from the RFU.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 20:08
Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:

Half the sides in National 1 do not run a 2nd xv.
Some do only at the start of the season when they require "squad" players game time.
Most don't from mid Oct onwards
For those that do, they play in Zoo 1, which is classified as level 5, according the referee appointments.

I would suggest, its totally pointless any side at National 1 or National 2 level plying a 2nd xv at level 7.
The jump between the 1st xv and 2nd xv will be too big.

It's yet another poorly thought out fix from the RFU.



Raging Bull 1 and 2 (ex Zoo) are made up of a mixture of Champ / Nat 1 / Nat 2 and Nat 3 clubs.

Raging Bull 1 = level 6
Raging Bull 2 = level 7

I don’t see Surrey going with this as their highest reserve league is a level 8 I believe which includes mostly second teams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 21:20
Leicester Lions 3rds are in the Leicestershire local Merit league, the 2nds are in the Raging Bull league, not sure if there are any plans to get involved in any others.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dropout22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2022 at 23:18
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Leicester Lions 3rds are in the Leicestershire local Merit league, the 2nds are in the Raging Bull league, not sure if there are any plans to get involved in any others.

Their 2nd XV have actually been kicked out of the RB now, as they refused to fufill any away games. They seem to struggle in that league, as they lost to a bishop stortford 2nd XV at home - who in turn had taken a 83-17 beating by the Richmond 3rd XV a week before.
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