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LSE1 Week 21 Predictions

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Robb View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 17:09
Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

CS Stags have been served notice that they are to be removed from the league and all their existing results for the season to be declared null and void.

They have until Friday evening to appeal.

No one wants to see any club go to the wall. But I think for Civil Service, the RFU is left with no choice. If they only had 1 team and only a handful of people running them, it did surprise me they were able to last as long as they have. I did always think that they might not be in National 3 next season but to get pulled out the league by the RFU midseason seems harsh to them but I think fair to the rest of the clubs. 

I just feel for clubs who have yet to play them at home who will be missing out on bar takings


Edited by Robb - 06 Mar 2022 at 17:13
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 17:19
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

CS Stags have been served notice that they are to be removed from the league and all their existing results for the season to be declared null and void.

They have until Friday evening to appeal.

No one wants to see any club go to the wall. But I think for Civil Service, the RFU is left with no choice. If they only had 1 team and only a handful of people running them, it did surprise me they were able to last as long as they have. I did always think that they might not be in National 3 next season but to get pulled out the league by the RFU midseason seems harsh to them but I think fair to the rest of the clubs. 

I just feel for clubs who have yet to play them at home who will be missing out on bar takings.


Reg 13.6.11 (e + f)

It’s up to the local org committee to decide. Nothing about 5 games is mentioned. Which is the basis the league sec has made the call.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 17:46
Lord Kitch
Newport(Salop) top of Mids Prem
15 points needed from last 5 games to claim title, 10 needed for promotion in second spot
On a winning run of fifteen at the moment so hoping it's the former!! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 18:11
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Lord Kitch
Newport(Salop) top of Mids Prem
15 points needed from last 5 games to claim title, 10 needed for promotion in second spot
On a winning run of fifteen at the moment so hoping it's the former!! 

As it stands and based on the beloved RFU mileage algorithm yes you are correct 2SW. Closest games Highly, Stourbridge and Bourneville.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 19:38
You have the algorithm? Do tell!!
Presume you mean Hinckley plus Lucs are another North Mids side who we'll come up against. 3 Bristol sides which isn't too different from trekking up to Scunny and Donny (plus Peterborough and Bedford Athletic in the past)
It's the Devon and Cornwall trips that are the worry - great if they're spread out but you can bet your bottom dollar  that they will all come in one block! 


Edited by Thatbloke - 06 Mar 2022 at 19:41
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 20:38
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

You have the algorithm? Do tell!!
Presume you mean Hinckley plus Lucs are another North Mids side who we'll come up against. 3 Bristol sides which isn't too different from trekking up to Scunny and Donny (plus Peterborough and Bedford Athletic in the past)
It's the Devon and Cornwall trips that are the worry - great if they're spread out but you can bet your bottom dollar  that they will all come in one block! 

That was based on early Feb standings.

I’ll try to update and revert.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 09:26
Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

You have the algorithm? Do tell!!
Presume you mean Hinckley plus Lucs are another North Mids side who we'll come up against. 3 Bristol sides which isn't too different from trekking up to Scunny and Donny (plus Peterborough and Bedford Athletic in the past)
It's the Devon and Cornwall trips that are the worry - great if they're spread out but you can bet your bottom dollar  that they will all come in one block! 

That was based on early Feb standings.

I’ll try to update and revert.

DRAFT AFTER 5TH MARCH v1

▲ Redruth       ▲ Hull

LEVEL 4 NATIONAL 2 SW       NATIONAL 2 SE       NATIONAL 2N
  Clifton   1   ▼ Tonbridge Juddians   1   ▼ Leeds Tykes
  Dings Crusaders   2   Esher   2   Sedgeley  Park
  Hinkley   3   Worthing   3   Fylde
  Barnstaple   4   Henley   4   Rotherham Titans
  Stourbridge   5   Bury St. Edmunds   5   Hull Ionians
  Luctonians   6   Guernsey   6   Tynedale
  Loughborough Students   7   Old Albanians   7   Sheffield Tigers
  Bourneville   8   Barnes   8   Wharfedale
  Chester   9   Canterbury   9   Blaydon
  ▲ Newport (Salop)   10   Rochford Hundred   10   Huddersfield
  ▲ Exeter University   11   Westcliff   11   Harrogate
  ▲ Sheffield   12   Leicester Lions   12   ▲ Preston Grasshoppers
  ▲ Hornets   13   ▲ Dorking   13   ▲ Otley
  ▲ Old Redcliffians * SW   14   ▲ Sevenoaks   14   ▲ Blackburn * N
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 10:19
Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

You have the algorithm? Do tell!!
Presume you mean Hinckley plus Lucs are another North Mids side who we'll come up against. 3 Bristol sides which isn't too different from trekking up to Scunny and Donny (plus Peterborough and Bedford Athletic in the past)
It's the Devon and Cornwall trips that are the worry - great if they're spread out but you can bet your bottom dollar  that they will all come in one block! 

That was based on early Feb standings.

I’ll try to update and revert.

LEVEL 5 NATIONAL 3 SOUTH WEST NATIONAL 3 SOUTH NATIONAL 3 SOUTH EAST NATIONAL 3 MIDLANDS NATIONAL 3 NORTH WEST NATIONAL 3 NORTH EAST
Weston Super Mare 1 Bournemouth 1 Hertford 1 Syston 1 Sandbach 1 Sc-unthorpe
Exmouth 2 Royal Wooten Bassett 2 North Walsham 2 Bromsgrove 2 Lymm 2 Doncaster Phoenix
Launceston 3 Havant 3 Westcombe Park 3 Burton 3 Macclesfield 3 Paviors
Ivybridge 4 Tring 4 Sidcup 4 Dudley Kingswinford 4 Wirral 4 Billingham
Brixham 5 Maidenhead 5 Sutton & Epsom 5 Broadstreet 5 Rossendale 5 Alnwick
Camborne 6 Wimbledon 6 Brighton 6 Nuneaton 6 Burnage 6 York
Okehampton 7 ▲ Banbury 7 Tunbridge Wells 7 Oundle 7 Kirkby Lonsdale 7 Sandal
Old Centralians 8 ▲ Oxford Harlequins 8 ▲ Shelford 8 Bridgnorth 8 Northwich 8 ▲ Driffield
Drybrook 9 ▲ Bracknell 9 ▲ Sudbury 9 ▲ Lichfield 9 ▲ Manchester 9 ▲ Ilkley
▲ Chew Valley 10 ▲ Camberley 10 ▲ Harpenden 10 ▲ Kenilworth 10 ▲ Stoke on Trent 10 ▲ Heath
▲ St Austell 11 ▲ London Welsh 11 ▲ Medway 11 ▲ Bedford Athletic 11 ▲ Stockport 11 ▲ Derby
▲ Thornbury 12 ▲ Newbury Blues * SW1E 12 ▲ Southend Saxons  * SE1N 12 ▲ West Bridgford 12 ▲ Kendal 12 ▲ Cleckheaton * N1E
◬ CS Stags * Withdrawn 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 11:53
Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

You have the algorithm? Do tell!!
Presume you mean Hinckley plus Lucs are another North Mids side who we'll come up against. 3 Bristol sides which isn't too different from trekking up to Scunny and Donny (plus Peterborough and Bedford Athletic in the past)
It's the Devon and Cornwall trips that are the worry - great if they're spread out but you can bet your bottom dollar  that they will all come in one block! 

That was based on early Feb standings.

I’ll try to update and revert.

LEVEL 5 NATIONAL 3 SOUTH WEST NATIONAL 3 SOUTH NATIONAL 3 SOUTH EAST NATIONAL 3 MIDLANDS NATIONAL 3 NORTH WEST NATIONAL 3 NORTH EAST
Weston Super Mare 1 Bournemouth 1 Hertford 1 Syston 1 Sandbach 1 Sc-unthorpe
Exmouth 2 Royal Wooten Bassett 2 North Walsham 2 Bromsgrove 2 Lymm 2 Doncaster Phoenix
Launceston 3 Havant 3 Westcombe Park 3 Burton 3 Macclesfield 3 Paviors
Ivybridge 4 Tring 4 Sidcup 4 Dudley Kingswinford 4 Wirral 4 Billingham
Brixham 5 Maidenhead 5 Sutton & Epsom 5 Broadstreet 5 Rossendale 5 Alnwick
Camborne 6 Wimbledon 6 Brighton 6 Nuneaton 6 Burnage 6 York
Okehampton 7 ▲ Banbury 7 Tunbridge Wells 7 Oundle 7 Kirkby Lonsdale 7 Sandal
Old Centralians 8 ▲ Oxford Harlequins 8 ▲ Shelford 8 Bridgnorth 8 Northwich 8 ▲ Driffield
Drybrook 9 ▲ Bracknell 9 ▲ Sudbury 9 ▲ Lichfield 9 ▲ Manchester 9 ▲ Ilkley
▲ Chew Valley 10 ▲ Camberley 10 ▲ Harpenden 10 ▲ Kenilworth 10 ▲ Stoke on Trent 10 ▲ Heath
▲ St Austell 11 ▲ London Welsh 11 ▲ Medway 11 ▲ Bedford Athletic 11 ▲ Stockport 11 ▲ Derby
▲ Thornbury 12 ▲ Newbury Blues * SW1E 12 ▲ Southend Saxons  * SE1N 12 ▲ West Bridgford 12 ▲ Kendal 12 ▲ Cleckheaton * N1E
◬ CS Stags * Withdrawn 

I think Stoke On Trent (as part of Staffordshire) would fall under Midlands rather than North West
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 12:26
Originally posted by Count Ford Count Ford wrote:

Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

You have the algorithm? Do tell!!
Presume you mean Hinckley plus Lucs are another North Mids side who we'll come up against. 3 Bristol sides which isn't too different from trekking up to Scunny and Donny (plus Peterborough and Bedford Athletic in the past)
It's the Devon and Cornwall trips that are the worry - great if they're spread out but you can bet your bottom dollar  that they will all come in one block! 

That was based on early Feb standings.

I’ll try to update and revert.

LEVEL 5 NATIONAL 3 SOUTH WEST NATIONAL 3 SOUTH NATIONAL 3 SOUTH EAST NATIONAL 3 MIDLANDS NATIONAL 3 NORTH WEST NATIONAL 3 NORTH EAST
Weston Super Mare 1 Bournemouth 1 Hertford 1 Syston 1 Sandbach 1 Sc-unthorpe
Exmouth 2 Royal Wooten Bassett 2 North Walsham 2 Bromsgrove 2 Lymm 2 Doncaster Phoenix
Launceston 3 Havant 3 Westcombe Park 3 Burton 3 Macclesfield 3 Paviors
Ivybridge 4 Tring 4 Sidcup 4 Dudley Kingswinford 4 Wirral 4 Billingham
Brixham 5 Maidenhead 5 Sutton & Epsom 5 Broadstreet 5 Rossendale 5 Alnwick
Camborne 6 Wimbledon 6 Brighton 6 Nuneaton 6 Burnage 6 York
Okehampton 7 ▲ Banbury 7 Tunbridge Wells 7 Oundle 7 Kirkby Lonsdale 7 Sandal
Old Centralians 8 ▲ Oxford Harlequins 8 ▲ Shelford 8 Bridgnorth 8 Northwich 8 ▲ Driffield
Drybrook 9 ▲ Bracknell 9 ▲ Sudbury 9 ▲ Lichfield 9 ▲ Manchester 9 ▲ Ilkley
▲ Chew Valley 10 ▲ Camberley 10 ▲ Harpenden 10 ▲ Kenilworth 10 ▲ Stoke on Trent 10 ▲ Heath
▲ St Austell 11 ▲ London Welsh 11 ▲ Medway 11 ▲ Bedford Athletic 11 ▲ Stockport 11 ▲ Derby
▲ Thornbury 12 ▲ Newbury Blues * SW1E 12 ▲ Southend Saxons  * SE1N 12 ▲ West Bridgford 12 ▲ Kendal 12 ▲ Cleckheaton * N1E
◬ CS Stags * Withdrawn 

I think Stoke On Trent (as part of Staffordshire) would fall under Midlands rather than North West

Possibly - but when you start comparing the distances etc that may change.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PM009 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2022 at 14:47
Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

CS Stags have been served notice that they are to be removed from the league and all their existing results for the season to be declared null and void.

They have until Friday evening to appeal.

No one wants to see any club go to the wall. But I think for Civil Service, the RFU is left with no choice. If they only had 1 team and only a handful of people running them, it did surprise me they were able to last as long as they have. I did always think that they might not be in National 3 next season but to get pulled out the league by the RFU midseason seems harsh to them but I think fair to the rest of the clubs. 

I just feel for clubs who have yet to play them at home who will be missing out on bar takings

I feel for CS’s situation but they have cancelled their last 3 away matches, costing those clubs match day revenue etc, which playing their last 2 home games and according to their website are planning on playing another home game this weekend (not sure if it will go ahead, presume they’re planning an appeal), but cheeky if you ask me
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote HAVANT TONY Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Mar 2022 at 17:20
I'm afraid I've got no sympathy for CS it's a boring soulless place to play rugby, they have one team only and 3 fans and a dog ! I guess theyve only survived over the years by a couple of people with money to pay their players ?
If it's true that they will only play their remaining home games and not bother with the away fixtures then that's a joke ..our tills are gonna suffer for that
Everytime weve played them over the years they've  never hung around after the game for a beer, never seemed to have a lot of camaraderie amongst their players.
Yeah true they are an historic club which no one can argue about and it's sad a club with that much pedigree are now facing life several leagues lower ... but I ain't gonna miss them
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2022 at 07:42
Can anyone explain the pathway from L5 to L6 in the new structure?  Nat3NE & Nat3NW will obviously feed into 2N, and on the same premise I can assume that Nat3SW will flow into 2SW, and Nat3SE to 2SE.   But what about Nat3South and Nat3Midlands?  Will each promoted club be moved to 2SE/ SW on a case-by-case basis?  I can see the leagues becoming very fluid as level transfers are required year-on-year.

Edited by Mark W-J - 10 Mar 2022 at 08:59
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2022 at 09:42
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Can anyone explain the pathway from L5 to L6 in the new structure?  Nat3NE & Nat3NW will obviously feed into 2N, and on the same premise I can assume that Nat3SW will flow into 2SW, and Nat3SE to 2SE.   But what about Nat3South and Nat3Midlands?  Will each promoted club be moved to 2SE/ SW on a case-by-case basis?  I can see the leagues becoming very fluid as level transfers are required year-on-year.

It's so hard to predict at the moment and we'll give ourselves headaches if we try to.

When everyone has been promoted and relegated (post the 2022/23 season) then there will be rejigging and level movements no doubt.

Nat 3 SW / S / SE will feed Nat 2 SW / SE but then by doing so that may shift some teams Between Nat 2 SW / SE and possibly M.

Whilst it is always possible to predict within about 85% accuracy the powers that be could always through a curveball.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2022 at 09:43
Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

You have the algorithm? Do tell!!
Presume you mean Hinckley plus Lucs are another North Mids side who we'll come up against. 3 Bristol sides which isn't too different from trekking up to Scunny and Donny (plus Peterborough and Bedford Athletic in the past)
It's the Devon and Cornwall trips that are the worry - great if they're spread out but you can bet your bottom dollar  that they will all come in one block! 

That was based on early Feb standings.

I’ll try to update and revert.

LEVEL 5 NATIONAL 3 SOUTH WEST NATIONAL 3 SOUTH NATIONAL 3 SOUTH EAST NATIONAL 3 MIDLANDS NATIONAL 3 NORTH WEST NATIONAL 3 NORTH EAST
Weston Super Mare 1 Bournemouth 1 Hertford 1 Syston 1 Sandbach 1 Sc-unthorpe
Exmouth 2 Royal Wooten Bassett 2 North Walsham 2 Bromsgrove 2 Lymm 2 Doncaster Phoenix
Launceston 3 Havant 3 Westcombe Park 3 Burton 3 Macclesfield 3 Paviors
Ivybridge 4 Tring 4 Sidcup 4 Dudley Kingswinford 4 Wirral 4 Billingham
Brixham 5 Maidenhead 5 Sutton & Epsom 5 Broadstreet 5 Rossendale 5 Alnwick
Camborne 6 Wimbledon 6 Brighton 6 Nuneaton 6 Burnage 6 York
Okehampton 7 ▲ Banbury 7 Tunbridge Wells 7 Oundle 7 Kirkby Lonsdale 7 Sandal
Old Centralians 8 ▲ Oxford Harlequins 8 ▲ Shelford 8 Bridgnorth 8 Northwich 8 ▲ Driffield
Drybrook 9 ▲ Bracknell 9 ▲ Sudbury 9 ▲ Lichfield 9 ▲ Manchester 9 ▲ Ilkley
▲ Chew Valley 10 ▲ Camberley 10 ▲ Harpenden 10 ▲ Kenilworth 10 ▲ Stoke on Trent 10 ▲ Heath
▲ St Austell 11 ▲ London Welsh 11 ▲ Medway 11 ▲ Bedford Athletic 11 ▲ Stockport 11 ▲ Derby
▲ Thornbury 12 ▲ Newbury Blues * SW1E 12 ▲ Southend Saxons  * SE1N 12 ▲ West Bridgford 12 ▲ Kendal 12 ▲ Cleckheaton * N1E
◬ CS Stags * Withdrawn 

I DO REITERATE THAT THIS IS PURELY SPECULATIVE.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2022 at 09:44
Not sure where this Nat3 title has come from - not even classed as that now with only 4 leagues so I doubt they will be given that title with 6!?
I believe play-offs between 2nd placed clubs is now a thing of the past so I would imagine the 6 champions from Level 5 will be promoted and bottom 2 in each division at Level 4 will be relegated
As now level transfers will doubtless be required once the 42 clubs are finalised and of course that will decide where the ever-fluid geographical lines will be drawn. Things are never simple but you are probably right about the Northern division although even now there is talk that Chester might get sucked into South West or maybe even Sheffield into South East
Best wait and see but I can guarantee there will be some disgruntled clubs (as there always is) with clubs on the extremities of their regions the most likely to suffer
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Lord_Kitchener Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2022 at 10:00
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Not sure where this Nat3 title has come from - not even classed as that now with only 4 leagues so I doubt they will be given that title with 6!?
I believe play-offs between 2nd placed clubs is now a thing of the past so I would imagine the 6 champions from Level 5 will be promoted and bottom 2 in each division at Level 4 will be relegated
As now level transfers will doubtless be required once the 42 clubs are finalised and of course that will decide where the ever-fluid geographical lines will be drawn. Things are never simple but you are probably right about the Northern division although even now there is talk that Chester might get sucked into South West or maybe even Sheffield into South East
Best wait and see but I can guarantee there will be some disgruntled clubs (as there always is) with clubs on the extremities of their regions the most likely to suffer

Its for reference only. You are correct with 6 winners only going up and 2 down form L4<->L5.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2022 at 11:00
Originally posted by Lord_Kitchener Lord_Kitchener wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Can anyone explain the pathway from L5 to L6 in the new structure?  Nat3NE & Nat3NW will obviously feed into 2N, and on the same premise I can assume that Nat3SW will flow into 2SW, and Nat3SE to 2SE.   But what about Nat3South and Nat3Midlands?  Will each promoted club be moved to 2SE/ SW on a case-by-case basis?  I can see the leagues becoming very fluid as level transfers are required year-on-year.

It's so hard to predict at the moment and we'll give ourselves headaches if we try to.

When everyone has been promoted and relegated (post the 2022/23 season) then there will be rejigging and level movements no doubt.

Nat 3 SW / S / SE will feed Nat 2 SW / SE but then by doing so that may shift some teams Between Nat 2 SW / SE and possibly M.

Whilst it is always possible to predict within about 85% accuracy the powers that be could always through a curveball.


Thanks for the info - I realise that it's all speculative but it's more informative than anything else I've seen so far!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Mar 2022 at 11:10
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Not sure where this Nat3 title has come from - not even classed as that now with only 4 leagues so I doubt they will be given that title with 6!?
I believe play-offs between 2nd placed clubs is now a thing of the past so I would imagine the 6 champions from Level 5 will be promoted and bottom 2 in each division at Level 4 will be relegated
As now level transfers will doubtless be required once the 42 clubs are finalised and of course that will decide where the ever-fluid geographical lines will be drawn. Things are never simple but you are probably right about the Northern division although even now there is talk that Chester might get sucked into South West or maybe even Sheffield into South East
Best wait and see but I can guarantee there will be some disgruntled clubs (as there always is) with clubs on the extremities of their regions the most likely to suffer


Historically Level 5 was Nat3 but hasn't been officially for a number of years - some people cannot get that into their heads.

RAID ON
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