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National level 4: NATIONAL TWO PROPOSED STRUCTURE
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 11123 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 12:59
I am not saying that Chester is in the South West.
To me, and I am not in charge, the natural boundaries would be adding Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Hereford to the South West and East Midlands to the South East, with NLD, Shropshire and Staffordshire going North.

But there are too many level 4 sides in the North.

It is not just Chester, it is also Newport - who should on those boundaries be North.
So either you have level transfers, and Newport and Cheshire end up heading to Devon and Cornwall.
Or you scrap level transfers and two Northern clubs are stopped from promotion from level 5.

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sedgley dave View Drop Down
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A few weeks ago, I wrote a piece for the Sedgley Park match programme, mentioning the fate of Glossop RUFC 35 years ago, when the Courage Leagues began. Because Glossop is in Derbyshire, or in Notts, Lincs and Derbys, in rugby terms, this very junior club found itself travelling to places like Grimsby, a hundred miles away, when there were half a dozen clubs of their standard on their doorstep, in Cheshire and in Greater Manchester.

In my article, I hoped this mistake would not be repeated.

I am in favour of the T method of dividing up the country. It is what I would have done, but it has to be flexible and take into account anomalies like Chester. It is 342 miles from Chester to Redruth, the first part of it on the roadblock aka the M6. An average journey for them will be to Clifton, 170 miles, which is about the same as their current longest trips to Blaydon and Tynedale.

The solution is simple. Keep the structure, and keep Chester in the North leagues as a special case. They are, after all, part of the northern rugby community, and always have been. There is no reason why the crosspiece of the T needs to be an exact east to west.

By the way, what about Guernsey? But I suppose all you need is an airport, and Chester is not far from quite a big one!


Edited by sedgley dave - 14 Mar 2022 at 21:14
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

I am not saying that Chester is in the South West.
To me, and I am not in charge, the natural boundaries would be adding Warwickshire, Worcestershire and Hereford to the South West and East Midlands to the South East, with NLD, Shropshire and Staffordshire going North.

But there are too many level 4 sides in the North.

It is not just Chester, it is also Newport - who should on those boundaries be North.
So either you have level transfers, and Newport and Cheshire end up heading to Devon and Cornwall.
Or you scrap level transfers and two Northern clubs are stopped from promotion from level 5.


Newport to Stourbridge or the Bristol area isn’t too tough.
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sedgley dave View Drop Down
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Not only Newport. There are clubs like Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Crewe & Nantwich, Northwich, Winnington Park.... They are below level 5 in most cases, but level 6 will feed into level 5, so they will also be travelling south, if they are below the line, and will be cut off from historic opponents perhaps 10 miles away.
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Points: 11123 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 14:30
We do not know what the structure at level 5 is going to be. Though, the reorg is going to lead to some clubs not playing old favourites and meeting new ones. Otherwise, it is not a reorganisation.

I think the Cheshire clubs will still go into Manchester, while Shropshire or Staffordshire clubs will play the Birmingham ones. But I am guessing.

On the other hand, Shelford and Peterborough might be placed in the same league, rather than separate divisions.

But we all agree the implementation has been a complete mess.
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And it hasn't even happened yet!! 😂😂
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Here's a tricky one! Guernsey are currently deemed to be based at Gatwick Airport which is fairly logical whilst in Nat2 South but what happens if they are placed in Nat2 South West which would seem likely would they then be "based" at Southampton or Bristol Airport? Can you even get flights from there to Guernsey in the winter rugby playing months or do Newport, Stourbridge, Bournville, Chester......... eeks, etc etc have to get themselves to Gatwick in order to fulfil the fixture? (Obviously there is a threepence halfpenny contribution from the RFU to assist with costs!?) 
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Points: 11123 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 15:35
A quick google suggest that there is a morning flight to Southampton arriving at 07:50 with Aurigny. There is an evening flight with Blue islands at 7:45PM.

Which, if the hosts could offer an early kick-off, gives nearly a three-hour driving radius of Southampton, four hours at the ground and time for transfers.

I do not believe there are currently Saturday flights to Bristol, but there are weekday flights, so if Aurigny thought it would be profitable they might add them.

I do not believe there are flights from Guernsey to Newquay - that would need to be a charter for the Redruth weekend.


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I don't think anyone is suggesting Chester is in the south west B]geographically

However they may be for rugby purposes next year.

Until the makeup of the 42 teams playing at level 4 is confirmed it is not possible to decide the destination of a few of the teams - I presume the distance calculations will decide?

Redruth is a problem as it I is almost at the tip of the south-west of England, spare a thought for them as whilst opponents have to go there once a season they have to travel long distances most away games.

Guernsey are currently treated as being based Gatwick for distance calculations, however as previously pointed out they could be based at Bristol, Exeter, Birmingham or Manchester assuming they can fly direct to these airports.

As we are discussing Chester possibly going to the South West it makes no sense to push Guernsey to the north as this compounds the problem. To me Guernsey should balance the South West/East leagues as required.

It has also been suggested that more sides could be promoted from the south than the north to solve this conundrum - personally I cannot see this as being fair, but then who knows?
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What did the Romans make of it?

"We trained hard....but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form up into teams we would be reorganised. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganising; and a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency and demoralisation".

PETRONIUS ARBITER; 210BC

 Something I read many years ago when I was a Regular soldier which appeared in an Army magazine
 during a period of military reorganisation. I wrote it down to keep and it has often proved to be true
 in political, diplomatic, business and sporting concerns.




Edited by Yogi - 14 Mar 2022 at 16:18
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Like it Yogi
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sedgley dave View Drop Down
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

We do not know what the structure at level 5 is going to be. Though, the reorg is going to lead to some clubs not playing old favourites and meeting new ones. Otherwise, it is not a reorganisation.

I think the Cheshire clubs will still go into Manchester, while Shropshire or Staffordshire clubs will play the Birmingham ones. But I am guessing.

On the other hand, Shelford and Peterborough might be placed in the same league, rather than separate divisions.

But we all agree the implementation has been a complete mess.

But we have been told what the structure at levels 5, 6 and 7 will be.
You have to smile reading some of this, but 3 leagues at level 4, 6 leagues at level 5, and 12 leagues at level 6, make it clear that 2 leagues will feed into one, in each case.

"The size of leagues at Levels 5 and below to be capped at 12 teams, and at Levels 3 & 4 to be capped at 14 teams." This is from the RFU website... [All teams at a given level!!]

"All teams at a given level will be grouped together geographically to reduce travel times and distance. The league season will be shortened to address concerns shared by players around the intensity of the current league structure.

 From season 2022/23, the English Clubs Championship at Level 3 and below will consist of:

a. One league at Level 3

b. Three leagues at Level 4

c. Six leagues at Level 5

 d. Twelve leagues at Level 6

e. Approximately sixteen leagues at Level 7*

f. Approximately 20 leagues at Level 8*

g. At Level 9 and below will be determined by the relevant organising committee."

I have no problems with any of this. All that is needed is sensible people to work out how best to implement the new structure, and to ensure the reduced travel is actually achieved. It will not be easy. Not even the RFU can move Redruth a hundred miles. But they can solve Chester's problem with a stroke of the pen.

Chester West  North - done!

Nor is it of great consequence if there are more strong clubs in one area than another. In the case of the North, you would simply pick the best 14 clubs to play at level 4, and the next 24 to play at level 5, and so on. There may be a small injustice, initially, but we know leagues are good at sorting clubs into peer groups, which is why we get brilliant games every week.



Edited by sedgley dave - 14 Mar 2022 at 19:35
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Camquin View Drop Down
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Points: 11123 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Mar 2022 at 19:44
We know how many leagues, but we do not know how teams will be allocated to leagues.
There are many ways of doing that.
Is the New North then divided East west, as now, or North South, so Manchester sides do not need to go to Cumbria?

I think the twelve leagues will mean three leagues within each existing division.
I suspect that there will be no changes at levels 7, 8 and 9 and those leagues will carry on as now.
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Sedgley dave - you are correct - taking the top 14 teams in each of the North, the South West and the South East would solve the perceived "Chester" problem, however I am fairly sure their would be complaints if a team currently in level 4 was relegated to level 5 in the north whilst lots of teams in the south west were promoted to level 4 to make their 14 up
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My understanding is two leagues in the north (East and West) one Central, two South East, (one north of thames one south) and one South west.
Looking at the current league positions and assuming two promotions from  level six to level five to make up  the numbers this puts Derby, West Bridgeford and Paviours in the North East along with Ainwick  and Billingham.
All to the Alter of less travel!!
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Absolutely Raider - that's what leagues are meant to be - a way of ordering clubs in terms of ability. If you start promoting a side from 5th or 6th in one division how is that fair on another club that might have finished 1st or 2nd in another parallel league who are left where they are? Total nonsense!
There are scores of clubs that have been level transferred over the years, probably against most of the clubs wishes but if the latest reorganisation means Chester, for example, fall into that category this time around then so be it they'll have to take their turn. 
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

We know how many leagues, but we do not know how teams will be allocated to leagues.
There are many ways of doing that.
Is the New North then divided East west, as now, or North South, so Manchester sides do not need to go to Cumbria?

I think the twelve leagues will mean three leagues within each existing division.
I suspect that there will be no changes at levels 7, 8 and 9 and those leagues will carry on as now.

I think it's a suck it and see situation. Look at what you've got and make intelligent decisions. There is an existing structure, with a North Premier league at level 5, and below that there is the 'obvious' east - west divide. Under the new system there is the further complication that some of the Midland Premier clubs will now be under the North banner. Sheffield is a northern city by any reckoning I've ever seen!

On the subject of that 'obvious' east - west Pennine divide, back 35 years ago, we at Sedgley found ourselves travelling many a long mile to the Cumbrian coast, when we had previously played Yorkshire clubs just 20 minutes along the M62 - Cleckheaton, Old Crossleyans, and the like. We were at level 8, back then, and didn't get to play in Yorkshire until we achieved level 6, ten years later. Oldham and Rochdale are almost next door to Huddersfield and Halifax, and they've never been able to play there, in the leagues.

So yes, you've made a bloody good point. And it's difficult. If you were Blackpool RUFC, or Fleetwood, would you rather go to Scarborough, or to Coc-kermouth? Probably neither! But the further down the levels you go, the smaller the area covered, with each division.


Edited by sedgley dave - 14 Mar 2022 at 21:15
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Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Sedgley dave - you are correct - taking the top 14 teams in each of the North, the South West and the South East would solve the perceived "Chester" problem, however I am fairly sure their would be complaints if a team currently in level 4 was relegated to level 5 in the north whilst lots of teams in the south west were promoted to level 4 to make their 14 up

There is no chance of a level 4 team being relegated to level 5 because of reorganisation. 2 leagues of 16 are being replaced by 3 of 14 clubs, so there's a built in shortfall of 10.

The arithmetic will differ in different regions, but in National 2 North there will be at least 2 vacancies, as the 4 obviously Midland clubs move out. There will probably be a one-for-one swap, Hull up Leeds down, which makes no difference. If Blackheath were to be relegated (not Leeds) there would be one extra space to be filled from level 5. Same thing if Doncaster / Ealing win their appeal.

Then the discussion would be: which of Otley, Hoppers, Blackburn, Newport, Sheffield would fill those 2 or 3 gaps?

[Of course, I'm using current league positions to illustrate my point. The clubs may change, the point remains valid.]


Edited by sedgley dave - 14 Mar 2022 at 20:39
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Spot on Yogi. Sums it up perfectly. 
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Originally posted by sedgley dave sedgley dave wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Sedgley dave - you are correct - taking the top 14 teams in each of the North, the South West and the South East would solve the perceived "Chester" problem, however I am fairly sure their would be complaints if a team currently in level 4 was relegated to level 5 in the north whilst lots of teams in the south west were promoted to level 4 to make their 14 up


There is no chance of a level 4 team being relegated to level 5 because of reorganisation. 2 leagues of 16 are being replaced by 3 of 14 clubs, so there's a built in shortfall of 10.

The arithmetic will differ in different regions, but in National 2 North there will be at least 2 vacancies, as the 4 obviously Midland clubs move out. There will probably be a one-for-one swap, Hull up Leeds down, which makes no difference. If Blackheath were to be relegated (not Leeds) there would be one extra space to be filled from level 5. Same thing if Doncaster / Ealing win their appeal.

Then the discussion would be: which of Otley, Hoppers, Blackburn, Newport, Sheffield would fill those 2 or 3 gaps?

[Of course, I'm using current league positions to illustrate my point. The clubs may change, the point remains valid.]



However, if you look at the current Level 4 set-up there are 18 teams from the North & Midlands and 14 teams from the South East & West - Midlands teams are in the North, however Leicester Lions and Hinckley are currently playing in Nat2S
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