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Worcester winding up order

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Steve@Mose View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Oct 2022 at 21:21
Originally posted by Runitback Runitback wrote:

They still might get a reprieve and stay in premiership if they can pretend it was all because of covid!!!!!


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Financially stricken Worcester Warriors have been suspended for the rest of the Premiership season and will be relegated from the top tier.

The decision was taken by the Rugby Football Union's (RFU) club financial viability group to give time to find an investor and the "best chance for a long-term sustainable future".

Worcester players and staff had their contracts terminated on Wednesday when part of the club was wound up.

The club can appeal against the ruling.

To be successful, the Warriors would need to show there was no fault for the insolvency event.

.....

The RFU also said work is ongoing with an unnamed potential investor to ensure the University of Worcester Warriors women's team can continue competing in the Premier 15s for the remainder of the season. However, their Allianz Cup tie against DMP Sharks on 15 October will not go ahead.

Conditions of takeover confirmed

While WRFC Players Ltd - through which players and staff were paid - has been wound up, a winding-up petition against WRFC Trading Limited, which remains in administration, has been suspended.

It has been confirmed that a condition of any takeover deal will require the payment of all rugby creditors, including any outstanding salaries owed to staff, players and coaches.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2022 at 15:37
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

I know that Club DoRs are talking to Steve Diamond about new contracts for his players, particularly the Academy players who earn the least. 

Going forward, there has to be an Ownership test, however, the RFU doesn’t have control, that is down to PRL whose credibility has disappeared.



If only PRL had the credibility of the RFU eh?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Oct 2022 at 15:38
Originally posted by Runitback Runitback wrote:

They still might get a reprieve and stay in premiership if they can pretend it was all because of covid!!!!!

They might get away with that if they can persuade the two disreputable cowboys who owned the club to change their surnames to Covid.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Stoatgobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2022 at 07:50
Originally posted by greenpower greenpower wrote:

why have they only been relegated to the championship  and not to the bottom of the league structures  like  other clubs have  ?


I think it's because the other clubs were liquidated.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Oct 2022 at 09:19
And they have not been - yet.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2022 at 19:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Count Ford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Oct 2022 at 21:37
Originally posted by Steve@Mose Steve@Mose wrote:

Worcester Warriors to appeal against Premiership suspension and relegation




The outcome of that appeal will show what is left in Rugby for any semblance of fairness. While these situations are awful for fans/players/staff/suppliers of these clubs I see absolutely no reason why they should be treated as a special case. The downfall was caused by selling the club for next to nothing to owners already know at the time to be somewhat suspect
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 00:04
I think the administrator has to appeal, even if there is no real grounds, because the value to the creditors of a Premiership team appears to be so much more than that of a Championship team.

We do not know who will own the ground, the team may need to rent it, and I suspect the landowner will want more than the turnover of a Championship club in rent.

There were reports the Worcester Trading was paying £6m a year in rent to the company within the group that owned the land. Now, that was funny money within a single group of companies, but I suspect a commercial rent would not be too far off. The landowner needs to make more than the interest on the loan used to buy the facility, plus the costs of repairs.

My tuppence - last of the high rollers - says that both Wasps and Worcester will be liquidated by Christmas and neither will trouble the Championship.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 06:31
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

My tuppence - last of the high rollers - says that both Wasps and Worcester will be liquidated by Christmas and neither will trouble the Championship.

I will be shocked if you are wrong Camquin. The Premiership as a competition is sitting in the departure lounge
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 08:05
Reading the various posts on the Worcesterand Wasps forums, all their supportersare interested in is getting back/ staying in the Premiership. They seem to have absolutely no interest in the debts to the local suppliers and to the tax man/Govt, just lets write off the debt and carry on as before.

Nothing about reducing salaries/squad size, being realistic about revenue,playing within our means etc etc, merely, write off the money,forget about it,and start again as if nothing has happened. No thought as to the damage their behaviour has caused or how to change things.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 08:56
Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

Reading the various posts on the Worcesterand Wasps forums, all their supportersare interested in is getting back/ staying in the Premiership. They seem to have absolutely no interest in the debts to the local suppliers and to the tax man/Govt, just lets write off the debt and carry on as before.

Nothing about reducing salaries/squad size, being realistic about revenue,playing within our means etc etc, merely, write off the money,forget about it,and start again as if nothing has happened. No thought as to the damage their behaviour has caused or how to change things.

I can understand wanting to keep the club going, it's only natural.

I agree with you on the other points but would stress it is only a small minority who seem to hold these views. 

The one that made me splutter out my coffee was the idea that they could just slot into the URC. There's hope then there's utter delusion and that definitely fits into the latter category. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 09:33
The fundamental issue that needs to be addressed for the survival of the Premiership is the permanent structural deficit between expenditure and income which since the advent of professionalism has been plugged by:

1. The RFU which has poured vast sums into the Premiership
2. The owners of the Premiership clubs who have consistently funded seemingly never ending losses
3. CVC

I wonder which of 1,2 and 3.  above will first come to the 'startling' realisation that without a very substantial restructuring of the cost base the Premiership is well and truly scr**ed!

PS I almost forgot that actually none of this is anyone's fault ......it was Covid and if that hadn't happened the Premiership would be swimming in a sea of increasing profitability 


Edited by Big Eddie - 13 Oct 2022 at 09:42
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thunderbird Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 10:20
Here's a thought ! let's see the books of all Premiership clubs. 

Not someone in the RFU office, but a proper qualified firm off accountants or business experts who understand business models. If it passes their scrutiny then away you go. Nothing hidden all out in the open. 

Saracens I seem to remember took a points hit rather the disclose their accounts. I wonder why!   

I am beginning to think Ealing and Doncaster dodged a bullet by not getting promoted .
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 10:50
Originally posted by Thunderbird Thunderbird wrote:

Here's a thought ! let's see the books of all Premiership clubs. 

Not someone in the RFU office, but a proper qualified firm off accountants or business experts who understand business models. If it passes their scrutiny then away you go. Nothing hidden all out in the open. 

Saracens I seem to remember took a points hit rather the disclose their accounts. I wonder why!   

I am beginning to think Ealing and Doncaster dodged a bullet by not getting promoted .

Which books? The club operating the Rugby club or all businesses associated with the directors?

What about payments not made through the books, either for 'legitimate' reasons or nefarious ones?

Whatever the answer is, it won't solve the underlying issue of costs exceeding income. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 11:46
No one buys a "rugby team" they buy the assets and hope that the team will generate enough revenue to service the assets (stadium, training pitches, academy etc). The assets are the only value. Can they redevelop the stadium to include commercial and residential property etc. 

The interest around WASPS and Worcester will depend on the sweating of the assets.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 11:48
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

one of this is anyone's fault ......it was Covid and if that hadn't happened the Premiership would be swimming in a sea of increasing profitability 

I knew a man of your financial acumen would offer a simple explanation 🤣🤣

Separately, I see that Rob Baxter (Exeter) has floated a 10 team Premiership to allow, amongst other things, supporters to see international players playing for their club

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote GreenThrough&Through Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 11:59
Professional rugby in England is a feasible thing but not whilst costs remain so high. The largest of these costs is player salaries.

Whilst i understand and empathise with the argument that it is a short career (that can be cut shorter by injury) and therefore a player needs to maximise their earnings whilst they can, salaries for the top players of anywhere between £300k - £1mil p.a. simply aren't sustainable. This leads to clubs spending in excess of 80% of turnover on people costs. Any prudent finance director of any company will tell you that in the long term, that level of expenditure will lead to significant issues.

Whilst DoRs and owners say that PRL needs to do more to increase income, it's highly unlikely that the increase required to cover current outgoings will be achieved. Professional football, primarily the Premier League, eats up so much of the money people/companies/potential sponsors/TV and wider media have and are prepared to spend on sport that everyone else is fighting for scraps.

The reality is for professional rugby to remain a thing in England, the players are going to have to accept that the days of high wages are gone. They won't like it and pundits (ex-players) will bleat that it's not fair but that is the reality. A salary of say £100k per year for a top player is certainly not a badly paid job. They'd still be earning additional endorsement/personal sponsorship money outside the game as a result of their status.
Even with salaries as they are, pretty much every player has to find another job when they retire as they won't earn enough whilst playing to retire on. A reduction in salaries may just sharpen the focus of a few in this regard.

Some will argue that lower wages will lead to a player drain overseas but i ask the question - where would they go?
France? Due to the restrictions the FFR put in place around the minimum number of French qualified players required in a match day squad, French clubs have reined in their overseas recruitment significantly. Yes there are some contracts available (see Sam Simmonds) but not enough to see huge swathes of players crossing the channel. Plus, players who've done so in the past have found that the grass isn't always greener - Jonny Sexton admitted that he'd never had to work so hard when at Racing as the arrangements in place at home regarding limits on game time don't apply in France for overseas players.
Southern Hemisphere? Top salaries here are nowhere near the money in the northern hemisphere hence why so many have tried to move north. And those top salaries are paid to centrally contracted players which any English player trying their hand there wouldn't be. So they'd be no better off. Plus, the structure of southern hemisphere unions is such that the national team comes first therefore overseas players are actively discouraged as their participation is a detriment to the development of home grown talent.
Japan? Yes they are paying well but even they've started to reduce the number of overseas recruits as it was becoming detrimental to the national team. In addition, the change in culture (primarily the language) is massive and whilst for some it would be seen as an amazing experience, the majority i reckon would be wary, especially those with families.

And if some players do go overseas, is that such a bad thing? They experience different styles of playing, different coaching methods, different cultures (both rugby and socially) which should lead them to become more rounded players and people.

World Rugby rules state that players have to be made available by their clubs during sanctioned international windows so they'd still be available for England. If they have concerns about their international future as a result of a move then they have to make the choice of whether to risk it. But that is an existing dilemma so in that regard nothing changes.

It will be a bitter pill to swallow for some but if they want to remain professional athletes, it's one they'll have to take.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 12:49
Grim conclusion by Owen Slot in today's Times:

"The other Prem clubs prodding the carcass of Wasps and Worcester is like a starving family debating whether to eat its weakest family members... kill off Worcester and Wasps, in other words, and we all get fatter. I suspect this is where the Prem is going.
It is an entirely Darwinian approach, but when did clubs work together to look after themselves? The levels of debt across the (surviving) clubs are such that they are motivated by selfish priorities rather than the collective good."

If anyone wants some light relief/ a good belly-laugh, see this letter from a bloke called Michael Reay in last Sunday's Rugby Paper. A breathtaking mix of arrogance, ignorance and stupidity...

"I totally agree with letters in last week’s TRP regarding the possible replacement of Worcester and/or Wasps, with two Welsh teams.
Why not move the top one (or two) teams up from the Championship instead, to fill the void, and so on throughout the leagues. This will ensure that the current fixtures will still be played, with the promoted teams playing them.
This is an excellent opportunity for the (promoted) teams to experience life, one league up."

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Oct 2022 at 12:59
Islander,

Owen Slot sums it up more succinctly than I ever could.....well perhaps not....The Premership is totally fu**ed would be my take.....

To be fair to Michael Reay he has hit on a brilliant idea there.....promotion/relegation....could it work?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Steve@Mose Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 18:47
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