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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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1] Correct but that allows me to independently and objectively make suggestions that are not based upon club bias for the future of the entire game not just 13 clubs. 2] I can't quite understand your point. My idea is no different except that it wouldn't be the Tigers running the Academy. That would be the only difference. The same players would still be picked up by the Academy structure and would still have the same progression route and if good enough would still make it to the top. 3] This happens already - players miss games whilst on International duty but clubs still carry on playing. All my idea does is remove the cost of these players from the clubs onto the RFU thus saving the clubs money. 4]You make my point for me. Players are criticising the current way the game is run, so that is why we need to look to change. “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3646 |
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We are not a million miles apart Richard, it's I would not trust the RFU to do a decent job, the clubs have professionals running the academies, who would the RFU use?
To change anything you need to look at the top and cascade the changes and ideas down, having old f@rts as Will Carling called them, still running the game means nothing much will change by tinkering lower down, an example is the mess we have as National league 2 West as an example, change to save the RFU money. Disguised as cutting down travel the Leicestershire sides are still travelling to Cornwall, don't think the clubs mind a trip to the seaside from land locked middle England, but it does highlight the RFU total understanding of the real world, they seem to be isolated and out of touch......................quite like poilticians really. (snouts in the trough for their own benefit is a possible acusation that I could not possibly make lol.............pass the Gin...........)
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PiffPaff
World Cup Winner Joined: 30 Oct 2014 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 1126 |
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Why do people keep insisting that the RFU old F@arts are running the game? It's not been the case for several years, the RFU Board and professional staff (small p) run the game. The old f@arts on the RFU Council get thrown a bone now and again and are made to feel needed but ultimately the Board and the professional departments shape and run the game and not as people seem to think its member clubs, CBs and Council Reps.
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Crouch, Bind, Tweet!
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Big Eddie
World Cup Winner Joined: 19 Jun 2007 Status: Offline Points: 5029 |
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....and that PiffPaff is probably the root cause of the malaise and the lack of investment and regard for the 'Community Game' The dislocation amongst the group consisting of the RFU Council and Consituentcy Bodies and the 2,500 or so clubs ('RFU Shareholders'), and the separatiion from the group that consists of the RFU Senior Management and their employees, ('RFU Management') frustrates true democratic accountability Because of the complexity and divergence of interest within the RFU Shareholder Group there is no effective control or oversight over the RFU Management Group. Until proper democratic control is exercised directly by the 2,500+ clubs (i.e. by passing the CBs and their nominated Executive Council members who are susceptible to being swayed by the RFU Management) I do not expect anything will change.
Edited by Big Eddie - 05 Oct 2022 at 12:20 |
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''The future isn't what it used to be''
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PiffPaff
World Cup Winner Joined: 30 Oct 2014 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 1126 |
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BE - probably what I was trying to say but put by you more succulently. Sadly I'm not sure we (the game) can get the control back.
When the cuts got made to the RDO's. CRCs and other game support staff circa 130 made redundant it was seen as a necessary fiscal saving. At that time the Marketing/PR/Insights Department at HQ had about 25 or so staff, now its nearer 60. So in short get rid of boots on the ground spread across the country who were genuinely doing to their bit and replace them with a team of marketing executives and pollsters who get to ask people what the "Club of the Future" will look like. (That was one of their a talking points at the recent RFU Game Congress). The club of the future in 10 years will look the same as the club of now but with less rugby being played and facing the very real fact of going out of business. |
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WEvans
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1378 |
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Absolutely and Halliford is of course perfectly entitled to his views. My post was in response to your comment "I'm yet to find an RFU fan on this site."
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WEvans
World Cup Winner Joined: 08 Dec 2016 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 1378 |
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I believe Leicester "pay their own way" in the same way as all Premiership clubs do - via wealthy benefactors. All Premiership clubs are heavily in debt and that is the problem as there appears to be no sign of that ending.
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3646 |
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Tigers have share holders, old season ticket holders were given shares, so a substantial amount of the "wealthy benefactors" are actually the fans. It is not easy for me to find out exactly who owns what, but the "main shareholder" a lifelong Tigers supporter living in the channel islands does not put any extra money in. Part of the reason why Tigers led the salary reduction a few years back when a few expensive players left, Manu Tuillagi being one of them, there was no extra money in the pot.
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castleparknight
World Cup Winner Joined: 07 Jun 2012 Location: Doncaster Status: Offline Points: 2978 |
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2] I can't quite understand your point. My idea is no different except that it wouldn't be the Tigers running the Academy. That would be the only difference. The same players would still be picked up by the Academy structure and would still have the same progression route and if good enough would still make it to the top.
Richard the issue is that by making the academies at university we exclude those perhaps not as academically able from being a part of the program. Perhaps a hybrid academy approach?
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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11156 |
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Leicester made money in 2012. 2013 and 2014, but has lost money every year since. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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kingsheathlad
World Cup Winner Joined: 15 Jan 2010 Location: Alcester Status: Offline Points: 3256 |
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I thought Exeter were the only Premiership club to show a profit in recent times.
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Cauliflower ear.
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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My general point is that players shouldn't be just rugby players and should have qualifications to fall back on. This could include apprenticeships. It is interesting to note that in NCAA college sports players have to meet minimum education standards to play in their sporting activities. It is something that we should be encouraging over here.
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Halliford
World Cup Winner Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4153 |
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Should I be flattered by the references to me? It’s not that I ama friend of the RFU, it’s more that barbs are thrown their way on this Forum which should be thrown elsewhere.
The RFU made a mistake in 1997 by not embracing professionalism and they have paid for it ever since. Clubs took control of the players and individuals driven by motives other than rugby took over the Clubs, leading to PRL which is a morally bankrupt entity. Some years ago, misguided people at the RFU committed long-term funding to PRL, failing to link it to RFU profits. In recent years with the Pandemic, etc. the RFU has been forced into a difficult corner. Yes, things could be done better, but my experience is that the Executive is doing its best, hampered by an RFU Council which no longer represents the rugby we know. National League Rugby has 56 Clubs and 1 representative. Some CBs, such as Army Units, have fewer Clubs and more representatives. The Governance is outmoded but the belief and drive of the workers is still strong and supportive. I don’t work for the RFU, I’m a Club Secretary who receives regular communications from them.
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Camquin
World Cup Winner Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11156 |
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In 1997?, they made that mistake in 1895. At very least, they should have organized a cup and league competitions. They were even sent silver for the cup. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Redted
World Cup Winner Joined: 28 Oct 2007 Status: Offline Points: 1082 |
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I don’t think any NCA club would think they are represented at Twickenham by the NCA. Each club is part of a county who each have representatives who are accessible to them.
These though have virtually zero power. Getting anybody at the RFU to reply to you is almost impossible. The RFU built the Twickenham stadium and were debt free, then the professionals took over and we had the East Stand debacle, everybody kept their jobs and the RFU millions in debt making it much harder to weather Covid.
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castleparknight
World Cup Winner Joined: 07 Jun 2012 Location: Doncaster Status: Offline Points: 2978 |
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Couldn’t Agree more with you on training for the future but it would need to be clear university qualifications is not the only options - I understand how the USA collegiate system works (in principal) but that doesn’t mean they end up with a useful qualification. There are many top quality players who have abilities other than academic (university acquired) qualifications. Let’s ensure we don’t create / sustain an elitist rugby system
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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3646 |
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Leicester Tigers have been associated with educational establishments going back to the days when Clive Woodward was a student at Loughborough. Brooksby College has a purpose built sports facility that is used by Tigers academy players.
DeMonfort University is also tied in with the Tigers as well as other local education establishments, an example is that Manu Tuillagi joined the Tigers academy as a 15 year and was educated locally. They don't just play rugby all day as academy students. This explains it in more detail
Edited by tigerburnie - 06 Oct 2022 at 09:23 |
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Richard Lowther
Coaching staff Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6528 |
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I've already mentioned apprenticeships as an alternative to University qualifications. What the sport should not be doing is having players with no future job plans because they concentrated on being full time professionals, a career which probably last 15 years or so maximum. I don't think that aim could in any circumstances be considered elitist, it is more having a duty of care.
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castleparknight
World Cup Winner Joined: 07 Jun 2012 Location: Doncaster Status: Offline Points: 2978 |
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Must have missed that, my apologies. It was the affiliation with University that caught my eye - skills based careers aren’t normally an element of university studies, but could in some way be blended.
Totally agree on preparing players for their lives beyond rugby.
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Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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tigerburnie
World Cup Winner Joined: 10 Jun 2012 Location: Scotland Status: Offline Points: 3646 |
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You are tarring all with the same brush, there are good clubs trying their best for their employees, members and supporters and of course their sponsors, clubs like Northampton and Leicester are well supported clubs with a long history doing a good job, now I admit the Worcester and Wasps scenarios have blackened the league as did Saracens and to a lesser extent Tigers and Bath by breaking the rules on finances allegedly....................... Without the PRL there is no England rugby team for the RFU to mismanage, the game at Premiership level is now a business and needs the safeguards and strict protocols to manage it going forwards. To me the clubs should be governed by it's own rules within world rugby codes. The RFU should be managing the National team and the Championship and National leagues to grow the sport and assist the lower leagues in growing the sport at grass roots level. I think after a short period going forwards the RFU should be supporting the Premiership clubs less, they pay the clubs and pay the players another wage on top of what they receive from their clubs, that should be looked at and the funds going to game as a whole.
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