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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Brian Moore in Telegraph
    Posted: 22 Oct 2022 at 20:11

The demise of Worcester Warriors and Wasps has opened up the possibility of long overdue reform at the top of English rugby. The Rugby Football Union should seize this chance to extend reform to the grassroots game and secure rugby’s long-term future.

This is not a new theme for this column, but the issues are fundamental, and the sustainability of the sport is at stake. What is rugby union in England? What should it be? What role should it fulfil?

At its most basic level it can, and should, remain a game for all shapes and sizes and for all genders the academy systems of the Premiership clubs.

It is a criminal waste of money that could and should be spent in far better ways. Why not make promotion between Levels 3- 5 dependent on clubs also having fully developed junior and women’s sections?

RFU research has shown that some of the money put into Level 3-5 is only given for the glory of rising up a few leagues and bolstering the ego of, for example, a local business owner. That money would be lost under this revision, but it is money that distorts the leagues and forces clubs to spend to compete. The game would be better without it. If money is to come to the junior game, and it is needed, let it pay for better facilities, more teams, more coaches and boys, girls, and women’s sections.

I am at a complete loss to see why the RFU does not feel it can order the game thus. It is the governing body and can organise it in any way it likes at the non-professional level. Other bodies, like the RFL and ECB, have strictly demarcated the professional, semi-professional and amateur levels of their games. There is no reason why the RFU cannot do the same.

What bedevils this discussion is a handful, and it is just a handful, of clubs who do not find it difficult to raise their level’s annual threshold to pay players. They ask why their ambition should be curtailed. The answer is this – you can be ambitious. You can rise up the leagues, but you do it in the way prescribed, which does not disadvantage others and enhances rugby as a whole, not just your singular cause.

If you disagree with what is proposed, you have to explain why it is wrong and what alternative structure you advocate; one that looks at the game as a whole and its long-term viability. Just as there have been high profile casualties at the top of the game, there have been many more at every other level and they are as much to be mourned.

It is time for the RFU to be bold.



Edited by Richard Lowther - 22 Oct 2022 at 20:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2022 at 20:24
Em, can someone tell me what payments are made in level 3-5 can’t think of any
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2022 at 20:32
I strongly agree that the RFU should not give any money to any club that pays players, and should charge such club the full market rate for officials.

It should also ensure that all such clubs have a certificate of insurance covering the season in place by the end of August, along with having paid all monies outstanding to HMRC and having a fully paid contract with a kit manufacturer. Failure on any point should lead to expulsion from the ECC.

Payment of players in levels 3 to 5 is the mote in rugby's eye.




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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2022 at 20:47
It’s obviously a long time since Brian Moore talked to anyone from a Level 3-5 Club. The only money my Club got from the RFU this season is from the Travel assistance Fund and we received 25% of what we received last year, despite the extra travel at National 1.

We would also love to have a girls’ or women’s section and we would if other Clubs didn’t nick our players when we build a good group. We are trying again but need a strong personality to lead it and fight off other Clubs. No problem with boys’ rugby!

The argument about paying players is an interesting one. We get nowhere near the salary cap and won’t break it because of the money we would lose from hosting CB activities. I do understand that some Clubs with no CB money do spend more than the salary cap, that is their choice. We have lost players this season to other Clubs because they pay more and we refuse to compete. At the moment that is coming back to bite us!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Redted Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2022 at 21:26
So Esher, rich club in London, full of 2nd home owners etc got 25% of what they got last season. 
Redruth who are in a deprived area and travel more than any club in the National leagues except perhaps Plymouth got nothing, yes zero.
Apparently we did not meet the criteria.
When we asked where we fell down on the criteria we got no response at all, no answer whatsoever from the RFU.
Perhaps we were short of a sports presenter in our submission.

Typical RFU supporting their favoured London sides.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2022 at 21:34
Originally posted by Redted Redted wrote:

So Esher, rich club in London, full of 2nd home owners etc got 25% of what they got last season. 
Redruth who are in a deprived area and travel more than any club in the National leagues except perhaps Plymouth got nothing, yes zero.
Apparently we did not meet the criteria.
When we asked where we fell down on the criteria we got no response at all, no answer whatsoever from the RFU.
Perhaps we were short of a sports presenter in our submission.

Typical RFU supporting their favoured London sides.
As an Ealing supporter, I dispute that the RFU favours London clubs as we aim for a 3rd straight top of table finish with no guarantee of promotion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Oct 2022 at 22:48
We also know plenty of players at level 3 go onto be good enough to not just play professionally, but to pull on international jerseys.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 02:57
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

We also know plenty of players at level 3 go onto be good enough to not just play professionally, but to pull on international jerseys.



Redted's point was that Esher received travel funding and Redruth didn't. Perhaps clarity on criteria for that would be useful. 


Edited by FHLH - 23 Oct 2022 at 02:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sedge Tiger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 08:39
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

The demise of Worcester Warriors and Wasps has opened up the possibility of long overdue reform at the top of English rugby. The Rugby Football Union should seize this chance to extend reform to the grassroots game and secure rugby’s long-term future.

This is not a new theme for this column, but the issues are fundamental, and the sustainability of the sport is at stake. What is rugby union in England? What should it be? What role should it fulfil?

At its most basic level it can, and should, remain a game for all shapes and sizes and for all genders the academy systems of the Premiership clubs.

It is a criminal waste of money that could and should be spent in far better ways. Why not make promotion between Levels 3- 5 dependent on clubs also having fully developed junior and women’s sections?

RFU research has shown that some of the money put into Level 3-5 is only given for the glory of rising up a few leagues and bolstering the ego of, for example, a local business owner. That money would be lost under this revision, but it is money that distorts the leagues and forces clubs to spend to compete. The game would be better without it. If money is to come to the junior game, and it is needed, let it pay for better facilities, more teams, more coaches and boys, girls, and women’s sections.

I am at a complete loss to see why the RFU does not feel it can order the game thus. It is the governing body and can organise it in any way it likes at the non-professional level. Other bodies, like the RFL and ECB, have strictly demarcated the professional, semi-professional and amateur levels of their games. There is no reason why the RFU cannot do the same.

What bedevils this discussion is a handful, and it is just a handful, of clubs who do not find it difficult to raise their level’s annual threshold to pay players. They ask why their ambition should be curtailed. The answer is this – you can be ambitious. You can rise up the leagues, but you do it in the way prescribed, which does not disadvantage others and enhances rugby as a whole, not just your singular cause.

If you disagree with what is proposed, you have to explain why it is wrong and what alternative structure you advocate; one that looks at the game as a whole and its long-term viability. Just as there have been high profile casualties at the top of the game, there have been many more at every other level and they are as much to be mourned.

It is time for the RFU to be bold.


What a shockingly Ill informed article. Very embarrassing for Mr Moore 

All the best 

ST 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 09:41
The criminal waste of money tgat Moore is referring to is the money spent by ego based sponsors. Business men spending huge amounts to gain short term success and, in doing so, artificially inflating the local market in players wages.
This part is relevent and worth considering :

It is a criminal waste of money that could and should be spent in far better ways. Why not make promotion between Levels 3- 5 dependent on clubs also having fully developed junior and women’s sections?  

RFU research has shown that some of the money put into Level 3-5 is only given for the glory of rising up a few leagues and bolstering the ego of, for example, a local business owner. That money would be lost under this revision, but it is money that distorts the leagues and forces clubs to spend to compete. The game would be better without it. If money is to come to the junior game, and it is needed, let it pay for better facilities, more teams, more coaches and boys, girls, and women’s sections.It is a criminal waste of money that could and should be spent in far better ways. Why not make promotion between Levels 3- 5 dependent on clubs also having fully developed junior and women’s sections?

RFU research has shown that some of the money put into Level 3-5 is only given for the glory of rising up a few leagues and bolstering the ego of, for example, a local business owner. That money would be lost under this revision, but it is money that distorts the leagues and forces clubs to spend to compete. The game would be better without it. If money is to come to the junior game, and it is needed, let it pay for better facilities, more teams, more coaches and boys, girls, and women’s sections.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopping Mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 11:05
Looks to me like Moore has identified the modus operandi of the cartel of clubs that have led the NCA (or National League Rugby whatever it’s now called) to where we are now & specifically a number of clubs represented on this thread to whom the local businessman ego approach is clearly accurate.

My question to those so obsessed with protecting this cartel of 8-10 clubs who wield the most influence within the NCA, is what is it you actually think you are achieving or aspire to achieve?

The game is teetering on collapse but some of you (and therefore your clubs) seem oblivious to what’s really going on. Many of you have resisted regionalisation at Levels 3 - 5 on the basis it lowers competition but the overall picture is one of demise. Some of you may be financially ok for now whilst built on the money of the local businessmen that Moore points out will always walk when their time is up.

The lack of financial control within the sport is frightening but not understood. Protecting your little castle now won’t save you from the Tsunami of no one (in comparative terms) playing the sport non professionally in the years ahead.

Too many NCA figures, cartel clubs etc have aligned themselves to the professional game and your being found out to have backed the wrong horse. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 14:00
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

We also know plenty of players at level 3 go onto be good enough to not just play professionally, but to pull on international jerseys.




I quite agree - when I read Moore's article I thought he was talking through his ar*e (said as much to a friend yesterday at rugby).

It is good to know others agree with me,

I would also say, he should have been highlighting the professional side of the game where teams spend way over their income on Player wages.

I favour the French approach where teams have to prove their ability to complete the season before it starts.

I would like to see playing/coaching budgets limited to a percentage of income with no marquee player exemptions.

Should this mean England internationals moving abroad, then so be it - change the policy of only picking English based players for England (most other nations do not impose similar restrictions)

Failure to address the largesse in the Premiership is likely to see further teams go the way of Worcester and Wasps.

Edited by Raider999 - 23 Oct 2022 at 14:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopping Mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 14:15
Talking through his hazelnut because no one likes to hear the truth perhaps?

To be frank, certain clubs that I refer to as the cartel are the ones who’ve paid out the most cumulatively over the years believing that eventually the game would bail them out. They saw the only reward for doing so (ie making the championship and the promise of some central funding) disappear & rather than look at why & where now, are doing what they’ve done each time the topic of change has been up for debate. That’s double down & reject common sense.

Only clubs that have generally changed their views are the ones who’ve seen the rug pulled and suddenly a sense of rationality hits. Many unfortunately remain deluded. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Oct 2022 at 16:22
Originally posted by Hopping Mad Hopping Mad wrote:

Talking through his hazelnut because no one likes to hear the truth perhaps?

To be frank, certain clubs that I refer to as the cartel are the ones who’ve paid out the most cumulatively over the years believing that eventually the game would bail them out. They saw the only reward for doing so (ie making the championship and the promise of some central funding) disappear & rather than look at why & where now, are doing what they’ve done each time the topic of change has been up for debate. That’s double down & reject common sense.

Only clubs that have generally changed their views are the ones who’ve seen the rug pulled and suddenly a sense of rationality hits. Many unfortunately remain deluded. 


My point was that it is the top level, living well beyond their means.

Yes clubs at lower levels have gone bust - however on the whole they are ones who have relied on 1 income source whilst trying to attract players from higher level clubs.

Having watched the Worthing v OAs game, players at levels 3 and 4 earn every penny they are paid, the sheer physicality of the game mean they are putting their bodies on the line for a relatively small amount of money. (Level 4 - budget £125k divided by a squad of 30 to 35 isn't a lot when one considers it is normally 2 training nights a week and most of Saturday for the match)
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 10:54
Originally posted by Redted Redted wrote:

Perhaps we were short of a sports presenter in our submission.

The sports presenter wasn't involved in the application -this season or last. I did them both myself.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 10:59
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

 

Having watched the Worthing v OAs game, players at levels 3 and 4 earn every penny they are paid, the sheer physicality of the game mean they are putting their bodies on the line for a relatively small amount of money. (Level 4 - budget £125k divided by a squad of 30 to 35 isn't a lot when one considers it is normally 2 training nights a week and most of Saturday for the match)

And many Clubs, mine included, pay a match fee not a salary. We have, like others introduced match fees for 2nd XV appearances as well.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopping Mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 20:30
Match fees/salary..all taxable income. 

So paying 2nd teamers. Why on earth would you do that? It’s happened elsewhere & effectively brought an end to competitive 2nd team rugby as clubs just hoover up even more players from other clubs, just as Moore is pointing out.  This is a sad mentality. If you’re abiding by the rules then contracting players prevents them being poached so why distort 2nd team rugby by making it a pay for play environment?



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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rabbie Burns Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 21:47
HM, unfortunately this is becoming the norm in London, Contracts are not worth the paper they are written on and cannot really be enforced
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 22:15
And here we have the old division.

The Southern clubs wanting to offer their poor players some meagre compensation for the time they take off work, while the Northern clubs want to keep the game strictly amateur as their members are rich enough not to need it.

You can tell I took history at school, not geography.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Oct 2022 at 22:24
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

And here we have the old division.

The Southern clubs wanting to offer their poor players some meagre compensation for the time they take off work, while the Northern clubs want to keep the game strictly amateur as their members are rich enough not to need it.

You can tell I took history at school, not geography.
We're certainly living in Broken Time, whether in the north or south.
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