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'Premiership' Cup confirmed....

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*Stalwart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 10:34
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Originally posted by *Stalwart *Stalwart wrote:

Scrumtime says: "and what happens to the 40/50 loan players that are with Nat 1 and 2 clubs during the season, they are not going to be available those weekends meaning Nat 1 is the luck of the draw, you can walk into a side one week stacked with DR, Academy and loan players as some clubs do, only to play them next week with a lot of gaps left in the side which could make them much weaker !"

Thing is, that happens in the Championship already. If you play a club who usually field several dual reg/loanees, when these guys are away to play for for their Prem clubs in the Prem Cup you obviously have a better chance than when they are all available for their Championship clubs. 'Tis a bit of a lottery!


So, inflicting the same lottery on National 1 is absolutely fine then? Oh I forgot, it's fine because Championship clubs are going to make some money out of it, so adding to the chaos down the pyramid is just regrettably one of those things that no one could have foreseen when they supported/endorsed it....



No, it's not OK - I was just pointing out that it happens already. 
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IainS View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IainS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 10:37
Yes by the criteria used to keep Ealing et al from being promoted due to their ground capacity, all the games would have to be played at the premiership venues because otherwise premiership players and supporters would be put at massive risk by visiting grounds that are clearly not fit to host them.

Or just maybe, the premiership ground criteria are self-serving, protectionist nonsense.

Edited by IainS - 26 Apr 2023 at 15:19
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trailfinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 10:47
I’m quietly optimistic about the new cup, the Telegraph article summarises it well I think but getting the execution right is critical if it is to be successful. 

Re dual registered players, it’s time this was tightened up/standardised. I have no issue with long term loan arrangements with special dispensation for injury crises but players stepping in and out as suits is not right imo. Richmond have been shafted by Hartpury and now Scottish in recent times. 

What I suspect will happen next season is that a lot of fringe players will stay with their Prem club for the cup competition and then will be loaned for the Champ league season. This means though that clubs which are completely reliant on these players (Hartpury, Scottish, Bedford) will prob struggle to field a competitive side for the new cup. 

In my view it is imperative that the Champ clubs are competitive otherwise it will be used as evidence that the gap is too big to traverse. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 11:37
I have little knowledge of the loans from other clubs, but I have seen dr's from Leicester Tigers at the Lions, indeed even the odd one from Northampton and Coventry too, but these were young lads pretty much straight from the academies and not in contention for matchday squads. Indeed Lions players have been loaned to Tigers on the rare occasion when these type of cup games have been played in the past. Lions had one Tiger cub this season and he has not yet figured for the Tigers at any level as far as I can see, so I don't see any reason to worry about the Lions not being where they are for next season on their own merit. Sure I think we all know there's a gap between the leagues and the step up needs managing, but are there really clubs over reliant on dr's?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MikeGC Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 11:53
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:


So, inflicting the same lottery on National 1 is absolutely fine then? Oh I forgot, it's fine because Championship clubs are going to make some money out of it, so adding to the chaos down the pyramid is just regrettably one of those things that no one could have foreseen when they supported/endorsed it....



.
As a supporter (ex President and current Secretary) of a Level 5 Club, I can’t answer your question, sorry.
We got about £300 travel subsidy for the whole season, funding

Edited by MikeGC - 26 Apr 2023 at 11:57
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Trailfinder Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 11:59
I guess my point is that although DR arrangements can work well, it is open to abuse (re my Richmond point above). Some standardisation via long term loan arrangements would be better imo. They can still train with parent clubs (if loan clubs are not full time) but only get to play for their loan clubs. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 12:59
So Champ and Prem do not start till post World Cup 

National 1 and 2 however starts in Sept ..

There is no way Prem Clubs will be loaning out players to Nat 1 and Nat 2 clubs I would have thought.
Which in turn will devalue the leagues and it will not be a level playing field as post cup comp and world cup, sides will be totally different! Or am i seeing this wrong ?


If you look at the Prem cup this year, how many of those players were playing Nat 1 at the same time.
Just as an example the Exeter side was full of their younger players on loan at Plymouth, Taunton, CP for the season.

Sorry but I do not think this has been thought through!

I do not know the exact numbers but I think I read on this site that LS had 11 Quin pups in last weeks, in one form or another in the match day 23. Lets say Quins lose 9 players to the world cup, rest 6 ageing superstars, who could do with an extended summer break, now have to field a cup squad 22 and then give 11 players to another club and that's without the other clubs they loan to, Richmond, Worthing, RP etc, they just don't have a big enough squad.

And its no slight on any club, before people start jumping up and down I am using examples!
 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 13:39
It’s not that long ago that Level 3 was seen as part of the Elite game. It was only at an NCA AGM addressed by Robbie Briers, Chair of the CommunityGame Board, that we discovered we were no longer Elite but Community and so no different in RFU minds to Clubs from Level 5-12. 

National 1 has had to fight to keep its status, starting with the infamous St George’s Conference. The Clubs do have a strong measure of consensus and know what we are trying to achieve, recognition as part of the Elite game again would be a god start, then travel funding. 

We are also united in wanting a minimum of 13 meaningful home matches per season - that doesn’t include Cup matches. At least we have a voice on the RFU Council which has already helped.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 15:41
I think you are mistaken if you think the Championship get a free £160k , The insurance cost for each club is £40k, £60k has to be allocated for Medical expenses- On site ambulance, 2 doctors present, fully kitted out Medical room to the RFU specification and Private medical care for injured players. Add to that travelling costs to Jersey, subject to flight times a possible two days in Jersey , approximate cost £14k and it soon used up. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 16:00
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

I think you are mistaken if you think the Championship get a free £160k , The insurance cost for each club is £40k, £60k has to be allocated for Medical expenses- On site ambulance, 2 doctors present, fully kitted out Medical room to the RFU specification and Private medical care for injured players. Add to that travelling costs to Jersey, subject to flight times a possible two days in Jersey , approximate cost £14k and it soon used up. 

Don't NL clubs have similar expenses but without a "free £160k"?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 16:41
No requirement for an on-site ambulance at Nat 1.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 17:58
Originally posted by IainS IainS wrote:

Yes by the criteria used to keep Ealing et al from being promoted due to their ground capacity, all the games would have to be played at the premiership venues because otherwise premiership players and supporters would be put at massive risk by visiting grounds that are clearly not fit to host them.

Or just maybe, the premiership ground criteria are self-serving, protectionist nonsense.

Brilliant!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote corporalcarrot Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 19:21
Originally posted by *Stalwart *Stalwart wrote:

Originally posted by IainS IainS wrote:

Yes by the criteria used to keep Ealing et al from being promoted due to their ground capacity, all the games would have to be played at the premiership venues because otherwise premiership players and supporters would be put at massive risk by visiting grounds that are clearly not fit to host them.

Or just maybe, the premiership ground criteria are self-serving, protectionist nonsense.

Brilliant!
Ealing & Jersey if they beat Amps this round should have none of it. Jersey had 3000+ against Ealing and may exceed that against Guernsey next week and even in the rain the atmosphere was special. Jersey have hosted England and the B&I Lions and the majority of premiership clubs and have even won the odd match against them. This has nowt to do with safety its about MONEY. Ealing or Jersey should take the twelfth place in the prem next season although they would probably lose most games but if the money men cant see it its their loss.

Edited by corporalcarrot - 26 Apr 2023 at 19:25
Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maire23 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 20:18
Also no trip to the Channel Islands at Nat 1. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 21:12
to be fair to WEvans he did say 'similar expenses', not identical in all respects...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26 Apr 2023 at 21:31
I think you will find that Nat 1 and below do not pay more than £2 for RFU insurance. The insurance at Championship level is based on all clubs being professional so the insurance of £40k is to cover medical requirements of professional players as it is their employment.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2023 at 15:13
Originally posted by maire23 maire23 wrote:

Also no trip to the Channel Islands at Nat 1. 


Guernsey are in the NL that I was talking about! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Apr 2023 at 15:15
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

I think you will find that Nat 1 and below do not pay more than £2 for RFU insurance. The insurance at Championship level is based on all clubs being professional so the insurance of £40k is to cover medical requirements of professional players as it is their employment.  

So that leaves 120 grand less the cost of an ambulance then!

I'm not saying that the Championship is well funded but it far better funded than the NL. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 23:05
Now we are 22! How on earth does that work for pools! 

We will probably have one of those crazy 11 teams x 2 leagues and then you play 5 games, 2/3 against Prem and 3/2 against Champ and most points go through even though you haven’t played half the teams!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 16:01
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Now we are 22! How on earth does that work for pools! 

We will probably have one of those crazy 11 teams x 2 leagues and then you play 5 games, 2/3 against Prem and 3/2 against Champ and most points go through even though you haven’t played half the teams!

Might be down to a much more manageable 16 by the time the competition actually starts!
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