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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 10:46
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Toulouse Toulouse wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

A 10 team Premiership with a 14 team Championship gives 24 clubs for a Prem/Champ Cup = 4 groups of 6 with semi-finals and finals.

All that is needed is some foresight and a decision
The RFU want a 10 team premiership, 10 team Championship and National 1....10 team south and 10 teams north. Another RFU Clusterf**k on the horizon!

This isn't what I am hearing. 
I'm hearing so many things I've put my fingers in my ears (figuratively).
Still... what are you hearing?

Alot but not leagues of 10 at level 3 or below.  I think where most of the noise is is whether there will be some kind of cup competion (s) for level 3 downwards and the format of that - straight knock outs v pools. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 11:45
Having attended the NLR meetings where these matters have been discussed I would make the following points:

1. Prem 2 will have the number of Clubs that the RFU believe can be sustainable at that level through income generation.
2. NLR Clubs agreed, with one exception, that splitting Level 3 into two Leagues made financial sense given the lack of travel funding; subject to:
a. At least 13 meaningful home matches per season (excluding any kind of Cup);
b. Play-offs to achieve promotion to Prem 2.
3. The RFU have accepted that Levels 2 and 3 need meaningful matches to generate income and want those Clubs to be sustainable on that basis.

It is certainly true that most Clubs cannot survive on match-day income alone but most NLR Clubs with their own facilities are able to generate income which supports the match-day costs.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 12:55
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:

You miss my point.. My point being National 1 is and has always been top of the tree for Semi Pro rugby in England.Why split that into 2 divisions ? and have 28 clubs playing instead of 14. There is no point.
Just like there was no point in doing what they did to National 2.. The removal of the play off is a shame..
 


I think the point is that the RFU don't want payments to be made to players outside of the top two leagues. 


Yet they were/are happy to turn a blind eye towards those who organised the financial cheating at the top level of the game for years and years. 

The hypocrisy is yet again breathtaking.

The RFU don't control the Premiership, that is the PRL self policing, so no hypocrisy. 

Simply not true. The RFU deal with discipline at all levels in the game including the Premiership.

If cheating for years and years isn't a disciplinary matter then I don't know what is. 

So I repeat, utter hypocrisy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 13:06
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:

You miss my point.. My point being National 1 is and has always been top of the tree for Semi Pro rugby in England.Why split that into 2 divisions ? and have 28 clubs playing instead of 14. There is no point.
Just like there was no point in doing what they did to National 2.. The removal of the play off is a shame..
 


I think the point is that the RFU don't want payments to be made to players outside of the top two leagues. 


Yet they were/are happy to turn a blind eye towards those who organised the financial cheating at the top level of the game for years and years. 

The hypocrisy is yet again breathtaking.

The RFU don't control the Premiership, that is the PRL self policing, so no hypocrisy. 

Simply not true. The RFU deal with discipline at all levels in the game including the Premiership.

If cheating for years and years isn't a disciplinary matter then I don't know what is. 

So I repeat, utter hypocrisy.

You are confusing two separate issues. Yes the RFU control the laws of the game and resulting disciplinary matters arising from those laws but the financial cheating you refer to was a breach of the PRLs own rules around a salary cap. They administered the salary gap and self policed it. It had nothing to do with the RFU. Therefore no hypocrisy. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 17:34
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Scrumtime Scrumtime wrote:

You miss my point.. My point being National 1 is and has always been top of the tree for Semi Pro rugby in England.Why split that into 2 divisions ? and have 28 clubs playing instead of 14. There is no point.
Just like there was no point in doing what they did to National 2.. The removal of the play off is a shame..
 


I think the point is that the RFU don't want payments to be made to players outside of the top two leagues. 


Yet they were/are happy to turn a blind eye towards those who organised the financial cheating at the top level of the game for years and years. 

The hypocrisy is yet again breathtaking.

The RFU don't control the Premiership, that is the PRL self policing, so no hypocrisy. 

Simply not true. The RFU deal with discipline at all levels in the game including the Premiership.

If cheating for years and years isn't a disciplinary matter then I don't know what is. 

So I repeat, utter hypocrisy.

You are confusing two separate issues. Yes the RFU control the laws of the game and resulting disciplinary matters arising from those laws but the financial cheating you refer to was a breach of the PRLs own rules around a salary cap. They administered the salary gap and self policed it. It had nothing to do with the RFU. Therefore no hypocrisy. 


To simply regard the years of cheating as only a salary cap matter ignores the impact it had on all the other Premiership clubs and more importantly on the integrity and the reputation of the game in this country which should be at the forefront of the RFU's concerns. 

To consider years of cheating as being nothing to do with the RFU is a perfect example of the thinking and the inaction displayed by the RFU which has led us to the state we are in today.

So I will look at the whole picture and stick with my view of utter hypocrisy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 18:20
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

To simply regard the years of cheating as only a salary cap matter ignores the impact it had on all the other Premiership clubs and more importantly on the integrity and the reputation of the game in this country which should be at the forefront of the RFU's concerns. 
To consider years of cheating as being nothing to do with the RFU is a perfect example of the thinking and the inaction displayed by the RFU which has led us to the state we are in today.

So I will look at the whole picture and stick with my view of utter hypocrisy.

What other cheating?
Have you now accepted the Financial cheating wasn't a RFU matter? It's clear you want to blame the RFU for something but I'm at a loss to what you are now referring to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 18:53
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

To simply regard the years of cheating as only a salary cap matter ignores the impact it had on all the other Premiership clubs and more importantly on the integrity and the reputation of the game in this country which should be at the forefront of the RFU's concerns. 
To consider years of cheating as being nothing to do with the RFU is a perfect example of the thinking and the inaction displayed by the RFU which has led us to the state we are in today.

So I will look at the whole picture and stick with my view of utter hypocrisy.

What other cheating?
Have you now accepted the Financial cheating wasn't a RFU matter? It's clear you want to blame the RFU for something but I'm at a loss to what you are now referring to?

This is getting ridiculous. Forget about your supposed ability to read my mind and to tell me what I want to do and just read what I posted.

If you read my post it is quite clear that I very much regard the financial cheating as a RFU matter for the reasons I stated. Once again - the financial cheating impacted the integrity and reputation of English rugby and therefore in my opinion it was as much a RFU matter as it was a PRL matter. 

A few years ago the RFU took severe action against Mike Scott the then manager of Premiership side London Welsh for forging documents to enable a player to play in the Premiership. He was charged with conduct prejudicial to the interests of the game. In my opinion those responsible for the years of cheating at Saracens were also guilty of conduct prejudicial to the interests of the game and the RFU should have acted against them in the same way. And that's why I think the RFU now making pronouncements on not wanting payments to be made to players outside the top two leagues is total hypocrisy.

This is my opinion and you clearly disagree which is fine but please don't try to belittle me by saying that I am confused and try to tell me what my reasons are for posting. 

This will be my last post on this matter as I really can't be bothered with people who can't accept others can have a different opinion to them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06 Jun 2023 at 21:54
What has all this got to do with next season in National 1 exactly?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 09:48
It affects National 1 in a number of ways.
  1. If Championship is converted to Prem 2 with 10 teams then there will be no promotion unless the Championship accepts 3 relegated.
  2. 23/24 could see a split league North and South so no relegation with the top 2 teams in North and South playing off for promotion to Prem 2. 
  3. Promotion could be restricted to Clubs who meet Ground criteria (yet to be decided) for Prem 2. 
  4. To be Promoted Clubs will need to be audited to ensure they are financially sound and meet the criteria.
What is critical for clubs is that all the restructuring is in place and clubs informed about it before the start of the season to enable them to plan, I am not holding my breath.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:12
I think you mean 24/25 season, Nat 1 for this coming season will be just one league.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 10:16
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

It affects National 1 in a number of ways.
  1. If Championship is converted to Prem 2 with 10 teams then there will be no promotion unless the Championship accepts 3 relegated.
  2. 23/24 could see a split league North and South so no relegation with the top 2 teams in North and South playing off for promotion to Prem 2. 
  3. Promotion could be restricted to Clubs who meet Ground criteria (yet to be decided) for Prem 2. 
  4. To be Promoted Clubs will need to be audited to ensure they are financially sound and meet the criteria.
What is critical for clubs is that all the restructuring is in place and clubs informed about it before the start of the season to enable them to plan, I am not holding my breath.
 I was referring to the vitriol against Saracens, not many people like them and they may well be the root cause of the malaise that is now professional rugby, but they have nothing to do with this coming season in National 1. Indeed the re-structuring is not planned for 23/24 season either, so has nothing to do with Nat 1. We might like to know what we are playing for going forward, but I understand we may actually know that before this coming season kicks off..............maybe.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07 Jun 2023 at 13:19
Maybe being the operative word Tigerburnie 
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jun 2023 at 16:37
Sale at home for the Lions opener
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2023 at 21:55
Now that we're four weeks in what's going on? Sale, Sedgely Park, Rosslyn Park? Not following the script!
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Se7en Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23 Sep 2023 at 22:00
Which script is that?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 01:05
Originally posted by Se7en Se7en wrote:

Which script is that?

The one that said Sale would challenge for title, RP ditto with new signings and S Park & Blackheath as newcomers wouldn't do as well as they have. But we all know that in National One, anyone can beat anyone. Rams clearly don't need a prompt. 
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 12:46
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by Se7en Se7en wrote:

Which script is that?

The one that said Sale would challenge for title, RP ditto with new signings and S Park & Blackheath as newcomers wouldn't do as well as they have. But we all know that in National One, anyone can beat anyone. Rams clearly don't need a prompt. 

That's not a script that's a list of uninformed thoughts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 14:29
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

That's not a script that's a list of uninformed thoughts.

Sorry, I was trying to add some humour into an unexpected start to the season. I thought the comments might develop into a discussion of the season thus far. Clearly not.
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 15:21
Early days yet, but it seems the Lions were surprised to beat Sale, but felt they let a win at Cinderford slip away, Blackheath game was an eye opener, not heard any thoughts yet on the Plymouth game, but sure they will take heart from scoring three tries a long way from home. Richmond will be a real test of character, I'm hoping for a positive result in this fixture.
Adjusting to the pace and standard won't happen overnight it would seem, but I doubt the league positions will be decided this side of the New Year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Sep 2023 at 17:28
True - we watch and wait over the next 90 days 
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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