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KnightsBoy View Drop Down
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Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:

It won't even have to be be a formal takeover like Stourbridge/Worcester. Indeed all the London Welsh currently in Regional 1 South Central did was request they be allowed to play under the London Welsh name rather than London Welsh Amateur. Wasps FC don't even have to do that (unless they want to have their wasp the wrong way round!)
I don't know why you've got such an issue with what happened at London Welsh.  The Amateurs were already playing at L9, and they were very much a part of the club, the same at the Women, Occies, M&J - we truly are one big happy family.  So when the pro team went out of existence, the Amateurs became the most senior team within the club, and effectively inherited the mantle of '1st XV'.  That meant we rebuilt from L9 - one level higher than the bottom of the pyramid.  The way you bang on about it, you'd think we'd taken over a L5 team and moved them into ODP just to save ourselves five years of travelling around public parks with dog mess for goalposts.
I still try to get to ODP when Jersey are playing at the RAG - its a great RUGBY CLUB imo. 
Always enjoyed my visits to ODP, even if we didn't get the results wanted.
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Am I one of the few who saw LW when they played at Herne Hill?
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Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:


It's not an issue with them at all, its just the example I use of what can happen when a pro side goes bust and their amateur arm (that for RFU purposes is a legally separate club) is already playing at a reasonable standard so they avoid starting at the bottom.
Fair enough - sorry if I'm a bit defensive!
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Originally posted by JohnLowe JohnLowe wrote:

Am I one of the few who saw LW when they played at Herne Hill?
I was presented with a 'Long Service Award' by the Supporters' Club at the end of season awards last week, and I was born about 15 years after we left Herne Hill.  So I'm impressed that a) you saw us playing there and b) you're so tech-savvy in your old age!
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Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by JohnLowe JohnLowe wrote:

Am I one of the few who saw LW when they played at Herne Hill?
I was presented with a 'Long Service Award' by the Supporters' Club at the end of season awards last week, and I was born about 15 years after we left Herne Hill.  So I'm impressed that a) you saw us playing there and b) you're so tech-savvy in your old age!
Less of the old age please, Mr Lowe is very spritely, especially the right elbow.
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He still knows how to work that elbow Wink

And yes John is very tech savvy. A stalwart of our club, and still organises the away trips for the supporters coach đź‘Ź


Edited by castleparknight - 19 May 2023 at 20:46
Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
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Points: 298 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnLowe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 May 2023 at 20:53
Thanks Mark (and John). I think I first watched LW at Herne Hill in 1955 when they played Newport and there were two Welsh international full backs on display, Arthur Edwards for LW and Garfield Owen for Newport. I think the game ended in an “exciting” 3 all draw with each kicking a penalty. The LW winger was Colin Bosley who I was privileged to meet and talk to when I visited ODP as a Doncaster Knights board member. Sorry Richard if I have taken this message off track but I was trying to support LW who were a wonderful traditional rugby club until they sadly lost their way.
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I am staggered at the level of blame accorded the RFU, caveated by the fact I do have concerns apropos their (The RFU’s) behaviour on some issues and that the structure needs assessing if grass roots rugby is still going to be the springboard for the professional game (clearly it has to be, I know! Presently there is no alternative).

If you look at the public records available at Companies House you will find that Wasps were, frankly, committing financial suicide. Amongst a plethora of other debts, how on earth Compass, a global catering/infrastructure services provider allowed them to build up over £7m in debt is staggering; Wasps management must have been spinning yarns! 

Wasps was not a business, it was a car crash waiting to happen; run by self licking lolly pops, paying over the odds for players and fan zones etc, basically in a big “I am” environment. Their behaviour was not, in any way, influenced by the RFU….they created their own manure show. Loyal supporters have been defrauded, it was never going to work! 

De facto, each club signs up to the RFU Regulations through their membership. There should be no reason to challenge a “regulated” decision, particularly if the results of fiscal ineptitude predicate being bounced to the bottom of the ladder. At the end of the day, any expectation by an individual member of the Union to be treated differently is for the birds. Given, I can hear the jingle of key boards typing, “well what about so and so”.

I absolutely sympathise with all of those impacted by the poor management of clubs. Keep in mind there are clubs at the bottom, and throughout the pyramid, that are better run, from a business perspective, than those that have gone to the wall owing tens of millions - you cannot argue facts. At the end of the day why should the Union, which is ALL member clubs, fund those that are poorly managed, operating with a beer income and champagne taste.

I do agree that The RFU and the other stakeholders are being belligerent, and need to see sense, around relegation from and promotion in to, the Premier League. I suggest though, that this, being used by broken clubs, as an excuse for their pheonix plan failing, is not the “Union of Clubs” fault.

Finally, I would be exceptionally peed off if “our” money was burnt in grants to dreams.

Being in support of the RFU position, in this case, I  await with bated breath for any reaction; if you disagree with my sentiments, please visit Companies House and take a look at the Administrator’s reports for both Wasps and Worcester.
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^ Spot on.
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Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

^ Spot on.

Thanks Kimbo
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Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

Originally posted by Robb Robb wrote:


It's not an issue with them at all, its just the example I use of what can happen when a pro side goes bust and their amateur arm (that for RFU purposes is a legally separate club) is already playing at a reasonable standard so they avoid starting at the bottom.
Fair enough - sorry if I'm a bit defensive!

I really do like London Welsh, a great club with a great history and what happened to you was awful but it has given many community clubs the chance to play against one of the great historic clubs in our game. Sorry if it appears like i'm angry or resentful about what happened because I assure you, that is not the case.
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I also agree with most of what you say OneForTheDitch but I would add that a review of filings at Companies House in any of the last 10 years or so revealed that the Premiership is essentially bust and has been for years. The RFU are complicit in this and they appear not to have done any basic compliance checks. 
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Ditto OFTD and Big Eddie! Other than the disdain shown to the rest of the community game my 2 main criticisms of the RFU would be
1) Failure to monitor the financial goings-on at the top level - it's no use bringing in conditions for clubs that have gone bust to be readmitted at the top level when those remaining carry on with minimal interference
2) Taking so long with both Worcester and Wasps to implement their own set of rules and attempting to argue they were a "special case" 
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Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

I also agree with most of what you say OneForTheDitch but I would add that a review of filings at Companies House in any of the last 10 years or so revealed that the Premiership is essentially bust and has been for years. The RFU are complicit in this and they appear not to have done any basic compliance checks. 
Agreed BE
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Throw into the mix that prem rugby itself (excluding the individual clubs) is also operating at a huge loss and I think it is plain to see that rugby as a fully professional sport is not sustainable in its current form. The lack of available sugar daddies has laid bare the fiscal imbalance of profit and loss across prem clubs. We keep hearing what a great product it is. Individual matches are exciting but the competition is boring. 

Leicester have needed a directors loan to cover liabilities and Exeter had to sell an interest in a hotel. Both these clubs are lauded as success stories with big crowds making them sustainable. If these two are struggling the  the others must be in a perilous state. 

How long can this current setup exist for? 

If England flop at this world Cup (highly likely) and the appetite to buy tickets for £120+ each at Twickenham diminishes I think professional rugby becomes seriously endangered in England.

It sounds a bit dramatic but some action needs to be taken. I'm intrigued at what the conclusion will be from the new RFU/Prem rugby player contract.

Any thoughts?
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Leicester actually sold some shares to directors, but yes it pretty much means the same. Paying off covid loans to the government on the back of lost revenue from Wasps and Worcester games left the club with cash flow shortfall. Luckily for Tigers they have an ex player with deep pockets to assist. So along with the sale of Borthwick(and others) to the RFU mid contract, Tigers should begin next season debt free, no guarantee that will remain so, hence our CEO suggesting to the PRL that the salary cap reduction remains whilst clubs get their finances in order. Disappointed but not surprised that some with debts but sugar daddies want to be able to buy another trophy with little regard for the other clubs.
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The investors who have annually ploughed millions into the Premiership clubs would pull the plug on any other investment they made in any other sector. But they are trapped……. pull the plug and suffer the social opprobrium of the spectators, From what I have been told from very informed sources that should know London Irish’s players are being signed up by other clubs signifying that Irish are almost certainly gone.

There may be a domino effect as other owners belatedly throw in the towel.
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Originally posted by castleparknight castleparknight wrote:

He still knows how to work that elbow Wink

And yes John is very tech savvy. A stalwart of our club, and still organises the away trips for the supporters coach đź‘Ź

Plus he travels by time-machine!
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Originally posted by One For The Ditch One For The Ditch wrote:

I am staggered at the level of blame accorded the RFU, caveated by the fact I do have concerns apropos their (The RFU’s) behaviour on some issues and that the structure needs assessing if grass roots rugby is still going to be the springboard for the professional game (clearly it has to be, I know! Presently there is no alternative).

If you look at the public records available at Companies House you will find that Wasps were, frankly, committing financial suicide. Amongst a plethora of other debts, how on earth Compass, a global catering/infrastructure services provider allowed them to build up over £7m in debt is staggering; Wasps management must have been spinning yarns! 

Wasps was not a business, it was a car crash waiting to happen; run by self licking lolly pops, paying over the odds for players and fan zones etc, basically in a big “I am” environment. Their behaviour was not, in any way, influenced by the RFU….they created their own manure show. Loyal supporters have been defrauded, it was never going to work! 

De facto, each club signs up to the RFU Regulations through their membership. There should be no reason to challenge a “regulated” decision, particularly if the results of fiscal ineptitude predicate being bounced to the bottom of the ladder. At the end of the day, any expectation by an individual member of the Union to be treated differently is for the birds. Given, I can hear the jingle of key boards typing, “well what about so and so”.

I absolutely sympathise with all of those impacted by the poor management of clubs. Keep in mind there are clubs at the bottom, and throughout the pyramid, that are better run, from a business perspective, than those that have gone to the wall owing tens of millions - you cannot argue facts. At the end of the day why should the Union, which is ALL member clubs, fund those that are poorly managed, operating with a beer income and champagne taste.

I do agree that The RFU and the other stakeholders are being belligerent, and need to see sense, around relegation from and promotion in to, the Premier League. I suggest though, that this, being used by broken clubs, as an excuse for their pheonix plan failing, is not the “Union of Clubs” fault.

Finally, I would be exceptionally peed off if “our” money was burnt in grants to dreams.

Being in support of the RFU position, in this case, I  await with bated breath for any reaction; if you disagree with my sentiments, please visit Companies House and take a look at the Administrator’s reports for both Wasps and Worcester.

The RFU have continuously shown themselves to be a bunch of incompetent clowns but you are absolutely correct in what you say here.

However had the incompetent clowns not proposed awarding a club with no ground, no players and little else other than a huge sense of self-importance a Championship place in the first place they might just have made themselves look slightly less incompetent. 
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I could not agree more.
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