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Why 10 teams?

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tigerburnie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:06
I think it's fair to say most of the Premiership clubs have produced a huge number of academy players who have gone on to have a future in the game, not all get a professional career, but that is possibly due to not reaching the adult standards, some just don't want to be pro players.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:09
Originally posted by Rabbie Burns Rabbie Burns wrote:

Think Blackheath are in East London with a southern twist and have been mostly at level 3 and above except for a few years at level 4 over the last 25 years firstly for 3 years around 2001-2004 then last season for one year but doubt if the members would want a franchise

No slight intended on Blackheath - in my head they're more the east side of south London than East London. When they say East London I was more expecting they really mean Inner Essex....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:14
Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Please excuse my ignorance but I have no idea how a rugby franchise works. Bedford and Ampthill are eight miles apart. Would they have to amalgamate and be called something like East Midlands RFC and have to play at a stadium like MK Dons? Because if that is the case then the idea sucks. Can someone explain in simple English how this would work?

Well no they can't, because there are a few different ways of making franchises produce what the franchiser wants...

You can simply let clubs bid to have the franchise for their area.

You could have a regional approach, where two clubs come together to make a joint bid - which might mean playing at one of their grounds, or it might mean playing at a third venue. This latter is where it gets interesting. 

Say you really want to help Wasps... you set a criteria which says that the 'franchise' sides (and only them) as new entities need to ensure they have really top rate facilities, minimum e.g. 5000 seats etc. Which means that Wasps put in a bid to play at the Alex for the Birmingham franchise, and Moseley if they wanted to bid would probably also have to bid to play there as they don't have 5000 seats. So to comply, Moseley have to walk away from their home...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:55
Originally posted by corporalcarrot corporalcarrot wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

If you have listened to Conor O’Shea you will know that he seeks a 10 team Premiership so that all of those teams can be at full strength for all League games. He wants more Academy and young players to get game time at Level 2 and Level 3. He wants a sustainable Level 2 in which the RFU can invest and seek an ROI. He sees franchises only as a way of investing in teams in under-represented areas of the country - East London, Southampton, Birmingham and the North East have been mentioned in that respect.
The proposal may make sense in under-represented areas and frankly should have worked at Leeds where they had a brilliant stadium and academy facilities just down the hill. Support generally follows winners, can evaporate quickly and probably has deep pockets and short arms.

I remember going to Headingly many years ago - Leeds had to beat The Pirates that day to secure promotion to the Premiership (remember that?). There were about 1,000 people in the ground, probably a hundred were Pirate supporters. The next day Leeds Rhinos played (can't remember their opponents) and there were 15,000 in. That's what they are up against in Leeds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 10:58
Originally posted by billesleyexile billesleyexile wrote:

Well no they can't, because there are a few different ways of making franchises produce what the franchiser wants...

You can simply let clubs bid to have the franchise for their area.

You could have a regional approach, where two clubs come together to make a joint bid - which might mean playing at one of their grounds, or it might mean playing at a third venue. This latter is where it gets interesting. 


I'm clearly getting to old to understand all these comments about franchises. 

As a 70 something, the modern game and the way it is administrated are totally alien to the concept of Club rugby. I see plenty of evidence of community clubs such as Hackney or Millwall (fill in N,E,W names here) developing as I might expect. The whole thing goes bits up at about Level 5 when league position becomes the be all and end all of a club's existence.

Add into the mix an underperforming national side, foreign players being shoe horned into the national squad, player salary expectations going through the roof, marquee players diluting the EQP player pool, outside interests such as CVC undermining the financial stability of the game, a Premiership cabal, a strong player trades union, politicians meddling into the affairs of rugby and a weak governing body leading to the disastrous mess we have now and the U20 losing to a Tier 2 side. 

On reading that Trailfinders are allegedly paying £80,000 for a new player, it makes me wonder what the hell Cambridge are doing in The Championship. 

National 1 is the pinnacle of club rugby as I understand it. 

Rant over, I'm definitely an Old Fart. 


Edited by FHLH - 05 Jun 2023 at 11:07
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Bedford Bear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 11:10
Originally posted by kempstonblue kempstonblue wrote:

A side note, issue.

Recently discovered advance match ground tickets at Bedford going up from £19.00 to £23.50.

I work shifts and cannot guarantee getting to every home match, so it’s match by match see if I am working.

If this ten team franchise emerges, I wonder what ticket prices will be 24/25 season? For people like me, we will find the money. But when I can watch other entertainment like IMAX or 4DX movies for £18/£20 how easy it to get someone to stand outside in January, with many second tier clubs having few seats, wind and rain. When a cinema, nice seats, dry and warm costs similar price? 

Yet, I just feel some at HQ think a rebrand, and tweak of numbers will see customers flooding into the lucky/misfortuned 10 teams.


Wow, that’s out priced me as a retired pensioner. In comparison I can buy a season ticket for the Emirates Lions 23/24 season includes URC/Curry Cup/Champions cup home games starting at £41.50 for the budget package rising to £126 for Gold. All season tickets include entry to the Springboks in July, plus discounts on flights, hotels and a Lions tee-shirt or replica jersey (depending on the package selection). Also entry to all Lions Cricket domestic competitions.

The RFU have outpriced the less wealthy fans at Internationals games and it’s creeping into club prices with lack of central funding. Sadly I won't be watching the Championship at those prices, I'd rather sit in a sunny stadium with a cold Windhoek and save the airfare money.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote kempstonblue Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 11:21
Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Please excuse my ignorance but I have no idea how a rugby franchise works. Bedford and Ampthill are eight miles apart. Would they have to amalgamate and be called something like East Midlands RFC and have to play at a stadium like MK Dons? Because if that is the case then the idea sucks. Can someone explain in simple English how this would work?

Don’t ask us.
We are only the people with a vested interest in our game.

Ask the RFU…I suspect they know nothing 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 11:50
Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Please excuse my ignorance but I have no idea how a rugby franchise works. Bedford and Ampthill are eight miles apart. Would they have to amalgamate and be called something like East Midlands RFC and have to play at a stadium like MK Dons? Because if that is the case then the idea sucks. Can someone explain in simple English how this would work?

Definitely not! The franchise idea is only an idea to create Level 2 Clubs in under-represented areas. It is an idea which is being discussed but on which no decision has been made and it would not, as I understand it, apply to existing Clubs or even be open to existing Clubs. It is to increase engagement with rugby, if possible, in areas which have little engagement at present.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 12:21
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

it would not, as I understand it, apply to existing Clubs or even be open to existing Clubs. It is to increase engagement with rugby, if possible, in areas which have little engagement at present.

So how on earth has the Birmingham rumour come about? It's got more grass-roots clubs than you can shake a stick at, and both a National 1side trying to get back up to the Championship and a National 2 side which has stalled a bit now, but has otherwise been on a steady march up the levels. Any arbitrary attempt to dismember the city to break off the north should be resisted in the strongest possible way. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 12:22
I get a feeling that there will three franchises for three failed clubs or "brands too big to fail" to side step 10 years of climbing back up the ladder, not this coming season, they will either vanish for a year or start the process at level 10 to show willing, then try to buy their way back in at level 2.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 12:25
Pour all the money that is going to be wasted on this non starter of an idea into getting schools playing rugby again. After 10 or so years you might actually have people in non-rugby areas enjoying/understanding the game and wanting to spend money supporting a franchise team. Rugby isn't a game that any pupils in inner-London understand or play. Schools play football. Basketball. Table tennis and athletics. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 12:32
Originally posted by kempstonblue kempstonblue wrote:

Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Please excuse my ignorance but I have no idea how a rugby franchise works. Bedford and Ampthill are eight miles apart. Would they have to amalgamate and be called something like East Midlands RFC and have to play at a stadium like MK Dons? Because if that is the case then the idea sucks. Can someone explain in simple English how this would work?

Don’t ask us.
We are only the people with a vested interest in our game.

Ask the RFU…I suspect they know nothing 

You only suspect?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 12:39
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Pour all the money that is going to be wasted on this non starter of an idea into getting schools playing rugby again. After 10 or so years you might actually have people in non-rugby areas enjoying/understanding the game and wanting to spend money supporting a franchise team. Rugby isn't a game that any pupils in inner-London understand or play. Schools play football. Basketball. Table tennis and athletics. 
Far too sensible, but I would add that my old school sold it's pitches to housing developers years ago to fill the councils coffers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 13:15
Too many schools were forced to do that.

Without getting into the politics, we all agree it was a stupid decision.

Which means we need to shuttle the pupils to a playing field - which eats into time and adds to costs.
Or do what can be done within the facilities the school has.

But it does not mean that offering all pupils a taste of rugby should not be an ambition.
Obviously, touch or tag at infant schools - moving to full contact in line with the age grade laws.

Otherwise we will continue to draw from an ever decreasing pond.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 14:43
There is a market in Leicestershire, it's not just the Lions that run minis and juniors.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 15:09
Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Please excuse my ignorance but I have no idea how a rugby franchise works. Bedford and Ampthill are eight miles apart. Would they have to amalgamate and be called something like East Midlands RFC and have to play at a stadium like MK Dons? Because if that is the case then the idea sucks. Can someone explain in simple English how this would work?

Without being Conor O'Shea and able to tell you what his options are I think they look at it more like MLS (Major League Soccer) in the USA, or more like the original Football league in Victorian era.

There would be a professional league of X clubs.  Membership of that league would be guaranteed, there would be no automatic relegation from it.

Membership of that league would be expanded by selling places in it to interested parties. Existing historic clubs could bid.  Totally new enterprises could bid.  In English RFU they'd inevitably pick the worst bids because the leaders went to the right schools, but let's park that for a second.

Non-interested historic clubs would continue to play in existing leagues, albeit likely downgraded if the ambitious clubs had all been added to be members of the professional league.

This is how the original football league in this country operated originally.  There were 12 clubs who wanted a guaranteed number and type of fixtures at decent grounds, so organised themselves into a ring fenced league.  Clubs joined & left it as finances allowed.  It merged with another such league (called the Football Alliance) to create two divisions with promotion & relegation between them, but nothing at the bottom.  As the popularity of football spread it added extra divisions, first a north & south league, then combined into the third & fourth divisions.  In the 70s the best "non-league" clubs created the conference, that is now basically a 5th division of "league football" in all but name.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 15:49
There were also leagues arranged by the Yorkshire and Lancashire clubs playing rugby, because they were paying broken time and needed certainty over at least the majority of their fixtures. Though they did want to keep a cup and lucrative matches against London clubs.

Of course, they then got into a dispute with the RFU, so set up their own body. 
But it is interesting how many of the same issues are still being discussed, including clubs overspending on player wages and other clubs not being able to compete.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 16:11
Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Please excuse my ignorance but I have no idea how a rugby franchise works. Bedford and Ampthill are eight miles apart. Would they have to amalgamate and be called something like East Midlands RFC and have to play at a stadium like MK Dons? Because if that is the case then the idea sucks. Can someone explain in simple English how this would work?

I think all the RFU want to do with the future second tier is ensure that there is a geographical spread of clubs with decent facilities that would require minimum upkeep if a club was promoted to the top tier, so none of those continued end of season arguments about meeting MSCs... I would expect them to be revised down as part of any new deal. 

So no forced clubs, no new clubs just 'invites' to existing clubs with good grounds in certain regions to fill perceived voids. Maybe something about Player development and Womens rugby too. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 19:32
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

There were also leagues arranged by the Yorkshire and Lancashire clubs playing rugby, because they were paying broken time and needed certainty over at least the majority of their fixtures. Though they did want to keep a cup and lucrative matches against London clubs.

Of course, they then got into a dispute with the RFU, so set up their own body. 
But it is interesting how many of the same issues are still being discussed, including clubs overspending on player wages and other clubs not being able to compete.

Yes, just like how various leagues with the same about 16 clubs kept getting proposed between the 1920s and the 1980s.

It is one of my strongest beliefs that both types of rugby would have been unimaginably improved had we stuck together and allowed broken-time. They had insurance schemes for bona-fide injuries for ages after 1895 (I've read the annual reports on the British Newspaper archive for the Leicester scheme well into the 1920s), so its not even as if they really viewed replacing lost wages as this black & white issue.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jun 2023 at 19:49
You might think that, I could not possibly comment.
We would have had to institute a national cup, to run alongside the county ones, ideally for the Calcutta Cup as the donors intended - and a decent set of leagues.

We would still have had to fight the "rugby is too dangerous" brigade, that got a lo of schools to adopt soccer.
But if someone had come up with rugby pools, there might have been mass interest in the results.

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