National League Rugby Discussion Forum Homepage
Forum Home Forum Home > League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk > Clubhouse chat
  New Posts New Posts RSS Feed - Why do the RFU give clubs money?
  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Events   Register Register  Login Login

IMPORTANT Remember to read the rules of the board and abide by them when posting.

Why do the RFU give clubs money?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
Author
Message
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why do the RFU give clubs money?
    Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 08:42
Why do the RFU give clubs money? 

The RFU give the Premiership money for one reason only and that is to have extra access to their English qualified players for internationals. 

The important word here is extra as they already have a right to them for internationals and a fixed number of training days under World Rugby laws.  The RFU are paying for extra training time in the hope that this makes them better players, capable of winning the Six Nations and World Cup nad therefore bring in extra money into the game.  

In recent seasons this plan has definitely failed. 

My calculations show over the 8 year current PRL deal this is costing £550,000 per international player. 

It is immaterial to the RFU whether all 50 play for one club or are divided across the Premiership, they are still paying it. The beneficiaries are the Premiership clubs as a whole - and I understand they pool this money anyway. 

 £  220,000,000.00 full amout of PRL deal over 8 years
 £    27,500,000.00 per year 
50 players called up for England training on average = 
 £          550,000.00 per player per year

And if we break it down to per international - say 12 a season, then it is £46k approx.  That is additional to the RFU match fee.   

By giving clubs this amount of money it has created wage inflation - and wages are the biggest cost to any club.  

The current PRL deal means that England, unless under special circumstances, have to pick players from the Premiership clubs, which gives them a strong bargaining chip. 

People claim the the Premierships deserve this money as they are the ones who are developing the players - but this isn't a clear cut argument as a lot of the player development may have taken place at other clubs - we all know examples of how a player developed by being on loan to a Championship club. But do those clubs receive any additional revenue for player development? No is the simple answer.

Therefore should the RFU money to the clubs be split in a more complex way? When a player represents England, should all his former clubs receive some compensation for his development, rather than his existing Premiership receiving it all?

It would be a fairer distribution of money allowing those clubs who play a part in a players development to receive some compensation for their efforts and encourage other clubs to further English players development in preference to overseas players as they may eventually receive a financial benefit in the future. 
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
gerg_861 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2017
Location: Ealing
Status: Offline
Points: 2522
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 09:50
My understanding from recent reports from Francis Bacon is that the RFU can't afford to give ANYTHING in the next PGA. Doesn't mean that they will follow his fiscally sensible advice, but the current PGA can't be seen as anything other than an utter failure.
Back to Top
billesleyexile View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1855
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 09:52
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Why do the RFU give clubs money? 

The RFU give the Premiership money for one reason only and that is to have extra access to their English qualified players for internationals. 

The important word here is extra as they already have a right to them for internationals and a fixed number of training days under World Rugby laws.  The RFU are paying for extra training time in the hope that this makes them better players, capable of winning the Six Nations and World Cup nad therefore bring in extra money into the game.  

In recent seasons this plan has definitely failed. 

My calculations show over the 8 year current PRL deal this is costing £550,000 per international player. 

It is immaterial to the RFU whether all 50 play for one club or are divided across the Premiership, they are still paying it. The beneficiaries are the Premiership clubs as a whole - and I understand they pool this money anyway. 

 £  220,000,000.00 full amout of PRL deal over 8 years
 £    27,500,000.00 per year 
50 players called up for England training on average = 
 £          550,000.00 per player per year

And if we break it down to per international - say 12 a season, then it is £46k approx.  That is additional to the RFU match fee.   

By giving clubs this amount of money it has created wage inflation - and wages are the biggest cost to any club.  

The current PRL deal means that England, unless under special circumstances, have to pick players from the Premiership clubs, which gives them a strong bargaining chip. 

People claim the the Premierships deserve this money as they are the ones who are developing the players - but this isn't a clear cut argument as a lot of the player development may have taken place at other clubs - we all know examples of how a player developed by being on loan to a Championship club. But do those clubs receive any additional revenue for player development? No is the simple answer.

Therefore should the RFU money to the clubs be split in a more complex way? When a player represents England, should all his former clubs receive some compensation for his development, rather than his existing Premiership receiving it all?

It would be a fairer distribution of money allowing those clubs who play a part in a players development to receive some compensation for their efforts and encourage other clubs to further English players development in preference to overseas players as they may eventually receive a financial benefit in the future. 

Yes.
keep the faith
Back to Top
Camquin View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 01 Jun 2007
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 11121
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 10:21
Its biblical.

Mathew 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him that hath not, shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Apparently, after the time of tribulation, we reach the Kingdom of God.
Sweeney Delenda Est
Back to Top
billesleyexile View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 20 Jun 2013
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 1855
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 10:41
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:



Apparently, after the time of tribulation, we reach the Kingdom of God.

Will there be sandwiches? And can you confirm that the Kingdom of God hasn't gone over-budget on it's West Stand? I so hate disappointing surprises.
keep the faith
Back to Top
LHTT View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Official Toliet key holder

Joined: 24 May 2007
Location: Surrey darling!
Status: Offline
Points: 882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LHTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:45
Article in the Guardian today says Kingdom of God RFC has gone into administration after being served with a winding-up petition by HMRC.
Irritating Offspring of the word unite.
Back to Top
Robb View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 24 Jan 2017
Location: South East
Status: Offline
Points: 1480
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 11:58
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Its biblical.

Mathew 25:29
For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance; but from him that hath not, shall be taken away even that which he hath.

Apparently, after the time of tribulation, we reach the Kingdom of God.

Amen
Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 12:06
Originally posted by LHTT LHTT wrote:

Article in the Guardian today says Kingdom of God RFC has gone into administration after being served with a winding-up petition by HMRC.

I'm sure Kingdom of God are a rugby league side? Jesus captain with 12 others playing around him. 

But they don't have to worry as there will be a second coming. 
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
LHTT View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Official Toliet key holder

Joined: 24 May 2007
Location: Surrey darling!
Status: Offline
Points: 882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LHTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 12:22
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by LHTT LHTT wrote:

Article in the Guardian today says Kingdom of God RFC has gone into administration after being served with a winding-up petition by HMRC.

I'm sure Kingdom of God are a rugby league side? Jesus captain with 12 others playing around him. 

But they don't have to worry as there will be a second coming. 

ClapClapClap
Irritating Offspring of the word unite.
Back to Top
FHLH View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Cambridge

Joined: 19 Apr 2009
Location: Cambridge
Status: Offline
Points: 5239
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 12:31
Originally posted by Parousia Parousia wrote:

But they don't have to worry as there will be a second coming. 

You can't always get what you want. It'll be a long and winding road even if we can find someone to carry that weight. Yesterday, all our troubles seemed so far away; it even looked like good news week but someone did drop a bomb, well and truly contaminating the atmosphere. 

As Queen said:

 “You can’t turn back the clock you can’t turn back the tide

Ain’t that a shame
I’d like to go back one time on a roller coaster ride
When life was just a game"



Edited by FHLH - 08 Jun 2023 at 12:33
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Back to Top
Halliford View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 16:15
I read the first post and started drafting a serious reply. Then I saw the other posts and thought - don't bother!

Thanks for the laugh (s).
Back to Top
LHTT View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar
Official Toliet key holder

Joined: 24 May 2007
Location: Surrey darling!
Status: Offline
Points: 882
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote LHTT Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 19:51
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

I read the first post and started drafting a serious reply. Then I saw the other posts and thought - don't bother!

Thanks for the laugh (s).

Gotta laugh Halliford or.....
Irritating Offspring of the word unite.
Back to Top
SK 88 View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 08 Sep 2011
Location: Leicester
Status: Offline
Points: 574
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 20:03
RFU invest less in pro game as a proportion of their revenue or profit than anyone else and wonders why it has bad results.

Personally I'd love the RFU to go back to only having access to the players 6 days before a test match and actually getting to see them play for their club, I'd love for people to see what would happen if the clubs did fold their academies up to what they actually want to run because the RFU wasn't paying them to run uneconomically big ones.

I'd love the clubs to test regulation 9 in court and most likely win a massive chunk of their season back.

I doubt the England first crowd would like to see the mess at Twickenham that produced.

Baron's report is interesting reading.  Principally it highlights how the RFU executive have sold off their matchday hospitality income to Compass & their TV revenue to CVC.  This will leave them with no money for the amateur game at all. But people will, in all seriousness, think that this group is competent to do anything in future and should get their hands on even more family jewels to flog off.

The RFU needs total reform and effective dissolution into at least three totally separate organisations, one to run the amateur game with new regional groupings taking over the county boards, one to run the national leagues (which already exists in the NCA really), and one to take over running of the pro game in its entirety with PRL & Championship groupings being folded into a new organisation that runs the professional game as a coherent entity.

Ironically it was one of Baron's predecessors who was proposing something similar in 1997, but that was kyboshed by the county unions refusing to yield their  power. 

Back to Top
Richard Lowther View Drop Down
Coaching staff
Coaching staff
Avatar
Moderator

Joined: 19 May 2007
Location: England
Status: Offline
Points: 6528
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 21:37
England's women have a new better deal.

'The RFU says other "enhancements" include improved match fees, better opportunities for off-field development and agreements around "revenue sharing if business targets are exceeded".'
Moderator National League Rugby Message Boards



Remember Wakefield RFC
Back to Top
Kimbo View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 31 May 2007
Location: 'incleh
Status: Offline
Points: 6184
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 22:52
Everyone surely knows Jesus plays Association Football, not rugby.

Jesus saves!
(But Sterling scores from the rebound).
Our City,
Our Club
Back to Top
Halliford View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2010
Location: United Kingdom
Status: Offline
Points: 4146
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08 Jun 2023 at 23:10
When i first saw that, it was Charlton scores from the rebound! Not saying it’s an old joke, but ….
Back to Top
PropDad View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 31 Mar 2009
Location: Hersham Boy
Status: Offline
Points: 525
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PropDad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 06:53
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by LHTT LHTT wrote:

Article in the Guardian today says Kingdom of God RFC has gone into administration after being served with a winding-up petition by HMRC.

I'm sure Kingdom of God are a rugby league side? Jesus captain with 12 others playing around him. 

But they don't have to worry as there will be a second coming. 

There were 12 others around him . . . until Judas switched to union !!!
Back to Top
rugbychris View Drop Down
First XV regular
First XV regular


Joined: 02 May 2019
Location: London
Status: Offline
Points: 141
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 07:49
Thank you for digging out that article. It's interesting that the financial meltdown was predicted so long ago. Barron is also scathing of the current financial mess. We have to ask ourselves if both former CEOs wanted change and wanted to head off impending financial doom then what is stopping them?

The only insight I have is a brief chat with the head brass at the RFU when I suggested that London should have its own CB. They largely agreed but said it was difficult and too many vested interests were involved.
Back to Top
RedPete View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner
Avatar

Joined: 08 Jul 2010
Location: Taunton
Status: Offline
Points: 1466
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote RedPete Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 08:12
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Why do the RFU give clubs money? 

The RFU give the Premiership money for one reason only and that is to have extra access to their English qualified players for internationals. 

The important word here is extra as they already have a right to them for internationals and a fixed number of training days under World Rugby laws.  The RFU are paying for extra training time in the hope that this makes them better players, capable of winning the Six Nations and World Cup nad therefore bring in extra money into the game.  

In recent seasons this plan has definitely failed. 

...

 
Ditto the academies (or are they included in the money you quoted Richard)?
Either way they are failing to improve the England team and, dare I say it, to the detriment of the community game.
Compassion for the conned, contempt for the conmen.
Back to Top
tigerburnie View Drop Down
World Cup Winner
World Cup Winner


Joined: 10 Jun 2012
Location: Scotland
Status: Offline
Points: 3630
Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09 Jun 2023 at 10:04
Originally posted by RedPete RedPete wrote:

 
Ditto the academies (or are they included in the money you quoted Richard)?
Either way they are failing to improve the England team and, dare I say it, to the detriment of the community game.

England have some excellent young players coming from the academies, playing in the Premiership, the fact that Jones chose not to use them, for example giving one cap to George Martin then binning him, was an example of the folly of the RFU having no idea. Maybe Borthwick will play it differently.
Jones was only interested in his own cv, he had no interest in building an England team for the future, he didn't want to bump into another good England team when he was back in charge of Australia again.
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 7>
  Share Topic   

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Forum Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 12.04
Copyright ©2001-2021 Web Wiz Ltd.