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Premier league 2

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Sid James View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Sid James Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 08:45
Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Ealing, 
Probably Doncaster, who do appear to have a stadium suitable for the Premiership.

I would have said Jersey, but they were apparently spending more than they earned.

Possibly Pirates, Coventry, and Bedford who at least have grounds with large stands and fans to fill them.

Which, is why I think they need to find franchises to fill the league.


Spending more than you earn is endemic in most rugby clubs. At professional level the wage bill is way above the income, thus clubs need a sugar daddy to fund the largesse.

Very true, at levels 1 & 2.
And, like Camquin, most people would have said Jersey, as they have no idea of the facts until it all goes wrong. Who will be next to reveal all and go under?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 09:27
I do not believe you could make the game entirely amateur - the genie is out of the bottle.
There are too many players being paid in the National and Regional Leagues.

I think we have to accept that clubs can pay players, but we need to make the game financially stable, so perhaps we do need spending limits.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote workerbee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 09:37
The RFU tried to set spending limits to all levels but made the penalties so feeble that most if not all ignored them. In fact clubs simply told the RFU that they were not adhering to the levels. Only true penalties such as the used against Saracens would be a real deterrent. The RFU and National leagues require clubs to provide them with their Balance sheets so you would think that it would be simple to see what they are doing. With the staffing levels at HQ a simple look at leagues and results would show those clubs who are moving up the leagues or are having big wins would highlight those clubs who would require closer look to see how they are doing it and a visit could follow. Unfortunately that would require someone to travel around the country outside of the M25. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 11:33
France are demonstrating that a fully pro second level is possible.

Lowest budget in last year's season was apparently over €5M


With reference to some comments above the spending rules are stricter over there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 11:53
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

France are demonstrating that a fully pro second level is possible.

Lowest budget in last year's season was apparently over €5M


With reference to some comments above the spending rules are stricter over there.

They're demonstrating a fully pro second level is possible *in France*

Maybe the RFU could look to do likewise if English local authorities suddenly started owning most of the grounds; the national profile of football was weakened; and whole tracts of the country were open to professional rugby because they had no overlap with much other professional sport. 

Because *then* we'd be comparing apples and apples, rather than apples and oranges.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 12:24
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Has anyone yet explained what benefits a Premier 2 would bring to the whole game rather than just enrich another set of clubs to the detriment of the majority? 

I'm still awaiting an answer. 

It just appears to be throwing good money after bad but I wait to be convinced I'm wrong... 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 13:15
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Now let's see. The Premiership is a basket case with every club reliant on a sugar-daddy of some form or another to survive. So now they are looking at forming Premiership 2. Bound to be a winner isn't it?

The sooner the whole lot implodes the better for English rugby and if Premiership 2 is going to cause it then bring it on!

You have no wish for a competitive National team then?

No
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 13:20
Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Has anyone yet explained what benefits a Premier 2 would bring to the whole game rather than just enrich another set of clubs to the detriment of the majority? 

I'm still awaiting an answer. 

It just appears to be throwing good money after bad but I wait to be convinced I'm wrong... 

I think you will wait a long time and I'm not sure Premiership 2 would even enrich any clubs at all.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 13:46
No one was willing to purchase London Irish. They had a decent team. Good Academy. Good community and foundation setup. Excellent history and an immediate tie in with Irish expats both in the UK and America. Good brand. Good potential etc.

I cant for the life of me see why ANYONE would want to buy-in to a franchise. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castleparknight Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 18:38
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Now let's see. The Premiership is a basket case with every club reliant on a sugar-daddy of some form or another to survive. So now they are looking at forming Premiership 2. Bound to be a winner isn't it?

The sooner the whole lot implodes the better for English rugby and if Premiership 2 is going to cause it then bring it on!

You have no wish for a competitive National team then?

No

Perhaps his being Welsh might justify his No response 🤣
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Nov 2023 at 19:21
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

No one was willing to purchase London Irish. They had a decent team. Good Academy. Good community and foundation setup. Excellent history and an immediate tie in with Irish expats both in the UK and America. Good brand. Good potential etc.

I cant for the life of me see why ANYONE would want to buy-in to a franchise. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 09:22
The other thing London Irish's history shows is the pressure that running a Rugby Union side puts on the playing surface, which means that although Reading and Brentford needed the rent, n the end, it was not worth the candle.

This weekend we have seen from another sport, that you can have a great marketing concept, only for the smallest of technical details to make you look a fool.

If we are going to get Premier 2 to work, we need a proper plan for finance, marketing and playing, all of which will need more than the back of a fag packet And the people writing it need to listen to the scrappy kid shouting that the Emperor has no clothes.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 11:57
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

The other thing London Irish's history shows is the pressure that running a Rugby Union side puts on the playing surface, which means that although Reading and Brentford needed the rent, n the end, it was not worth the candle.

This weekend we have seen from another sport, that you can have a great marketing concept, only for the smallest of technical details to make you look a fool.

If we are going to get Premier 2 to work, we need a proper plan for finance, marketing and playing, all of which will need more than the back of a fag packet And the people writing it need to listen to the scrappy kid shouting that the Emperor has no clothes.



I can understand the RFU proving money to the Premiership to fund access to England players who are under contract to clubs - but it would be cheaper for both the RFU and Clubs to have these under central contracts. 

In reality no England international will be selected from any club playing in Premier 2* and therefore there is no business case I can see to fund them more than they fund any other club outside of the Premiership. 

I hear arguments about clubs developing future England internationals - and there is a discussion to be had around this point - but in practice all the clubs that developed the player - from the school or kids rugby, through colts, university, local club, etc should share in funding - not just his latest club, who will have benefitted from all the hard work put in by the clubs before. 

* We saw from the last RFU/PRL deal that England players had to be drawn from the Premiership clubs unless special circumstances existed - this was to provide the Premiership protection against players going abroad and the clubs potentially losing out on RFU funding if they didn't provide England with players.  Will this restrictive rule be included in the new deal - I suspect so because otherwise it weakens the Premiership financial argument. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 12:31
Football's approach to Everton's excess losses:

"During the proceedings, the Club admitted it was in breach of the PSRs for the period ending Season 2021/22 but the extent of the breach remained in dispute.

"Following a five-day hearing last month, the Commission determined that Everton FC’s Profitability and Sustainability Rules (PSR) Calculation for the relevant period resulted in a loss of £124.5million, as contended by the Premier League, which exceeded the threshold of £105million (loss) permitted under the PSRs.

"The Commission concluded that a sporting sanction in the form of a 10-point deduction should be imposed.

"That sanction has immediate effect."


Edited by FHLH - 17 Nov 2023 at 13:55
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 13:47
Let's be realistic. Premiership Rugby want a 'closed shop' - no relegation, no promotion. There simply is not enough money in or around the professional game to sustain many more clubs than this.
Get the Premiership back up to 12 clubs/franchises (call them what you will) and engage England players on central contracts. 
Allow the rest of the English clubs to form a truly national league structure with promotion and relegation as an absolute given for every club. This might even allow for a proper National Knock-out cup competition as well.
The better clubs will still be a focus for aspiring youngsters to showcase their skills.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 14:04
Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

Get the Premiership back up to 12 clubs/franchises (call them what you will) and engage England players on central contracts. 

The challenge then is to decide which of the Championship clubs will be frozen out.

As in my earlier post regarding Everton, there needs to be a clampdown on excess losses, as in football and that needs to be factored into Premiership entry.

The solution to financial monitoring is very simple - one standard piece of accounting software which can be used to compare performance each month. 

We should copy the French monitoring system with points deduction or expulsion from the Premiership.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote donnyladinsheffield Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 15:12
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

I do not believe you could make the game entirely amateur - the genie is out of the bottle.
There are too many players being paid in the National and Regional Leagues.

I think we have to accept that clubs can pay players, but we need to make the game financially stable, so perhaps we do need spending limits.


How about the amount you have left after you deduct all other expenditure from the income you can generate?


Edited by donnyladinsheffield - 17 Nov 2023 at 15:14
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 17:28
What like amateur clubs. That would never work.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SK 88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 17:31
Very interesting statement from the Championship clubs just now.

Coming out so strongly (& unanimously) against franchising & separating pro from amateur rugby is a much bolder position than I thought they'd take. I'd assumed opposition was more from the position of not trusting there would be equitable treatment within the proposed new structure.

Seems a very big risk for the bigger clubs to take, though I guess they can be against it now, then when it happens anyway apply for a franchise at that point. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Nov 2023 at 17:32
"The challenge then is to decide which of the Championship clubs will be frozen out."

Of the remaining 11 clubs in the Championship we know for certain that Ealing would want to be 'in'.

Doncaster, Coventry and, maybe, Pirates would also want a chance but only Donny, currently, would be allowed in.

I doubt that Bedford would want to join and that the remaining 6 would also be unlikely candidates.
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