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Premiership II plans announced

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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 12:03
Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Caldy Rugby Club is just a section of Caldy Sports club limited who manage the bar and ground for three sections Rugby , Hockey and Cricket and the income from the bar goes to C.S.C.L not the rugby club. It has one full time member of staff. All the bar staff are part time and the grounds , all 16 acres are managed by volunteers cutting and marking 3 full size pitches, 12 Mini and Junior pitches, maintaining the car parks and banks. Despite this the Rugby Section has been able to rise through the leagues together with a 2nd XV who are unbeaten since April 2019. We registered over 500 mini and junior players this year including 50 girls, a section which is growing year on Year. 
I would be nice to see someone from the RFU to come and see a club in the north and find out what a semi pro side can achieve. Instead of sending an Auditor whose job it seems is to find as much faults as he can to fine the club rather than encouraging and helping to resolve issues. 
 

Workerbee,

You are closer to the action than me  and that is a very informative post. Caldy is a true community club but that doesn't mean it isn't ambitious. To achieve what Caldy has done in the last 26 years is a testament to a lot of dedicated volunteers with you and a few others being at the very top of that list.

In 1996 Caldy was relegated to level 9 in the pyramid which was a blow to its 50 or so supporters 
In 2022 Caldy beat Sale FC in front of some 3,500 supporters to take its place in the Championship

In the intervening 26 years the volunteer ethos hasn't changed. The pitches,grounds and infrastructure are still maintained by a group of volunteer pensioners (with some of the class of 96 still involved!)

During Covid and after, led by the indefatigable Bob Cooke, Caldy volunteers including the past and present Chairmen of Rugby all rolled up their sleeves to help manually remodel the grounds to enable a better viewing experience for Nat 1 and subsequently Championship spectators. This involved the movement of many hundreds of tons of rock and soil so that the famous Caldy 'Bank' could accommodate a thousand or so spectators. The current Chairman of Rugby Mark Loughran must have moved a hundred tons on his own throughout the summer of 2022.

Through the efforts of its volunteers Caldy Sports Club provides facilities for the following numbers of junior and adult male and female participants

Rugby  -  850 (includes 100 female and 600 mini/junior/youth)
Cricket -  250 
Hockey -  400
Boules  -    30

Caldy Sports Club is also the home of the 70 strong and amusingly named "Off Pitch" choir which annually raises £ thousands for local charities. (I would have said aptly named "Off Pitch" choir but their choir mistress is formidable as many grizzled senior players and coaches have found out when they have inadvertently disturbed choir rehearsal on a training night. I just wouldn't want to get the wrong side of her !) 
This Community spirit is why Caldy supporters are incensed by the prospect of being displaced in Premiership 2 by a 'brand' like Wasps! How dare the RFU ride roughshod over a club that has grafted so hard and for so long to get to the Championship and then to be displaced by a 'brand' .

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 13:35
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by workerbee workerbee wrote:

Caldy Rugby Club is just a section of Caldy Sports club limited who manage the bar and ground for three sections Rugby , Hockey and Cricket and the income from the bar goes to C.S.C.L not the rugby club. It has one full time member of staff. All the bar staff are part time and the grounds , all 16 acres are managed by volunteers cutting and marking 3 full size pitches, 12 Mini and Junior pitches, maintaining the car parks and banks. Despite this the Rugby Section has been able to rise through the leagues together with a 2nd XV who are unbeaten since April 2019. We registered over 500 mini and junior players this year including 50 girls, a section which is growing year on Year. 
I would be nice to see someone from the RFU to come and see a club in the north and find out what a semi pro side can achieve. Instead of sending an Auditor whose job it seems is to find as much faults as he can to fine the club rather than encouraging and helping to resolve issues. 
 

Workerbee,

You are closer to the action than me  and that is a very informative post. Caldy is a true community club but that doesn't mean it isn't ambitious. To achieve what Caldy has done in the last 26 years is a testament to a lot of dedicated volunteers with you and a few others being at the very top of that list.

In 1996 Caldy was relegated to level 9 in the pyramid which was a blow to its 50 or so supporters 
In 2022 Caldy beat Sale FC in front of some 3,500 supporters to take its place in the Championship

In the intervening 26 years the volunteer ethos hasn't changed. The pitches,grounds and infrastructure are still maintained by a group of volunteer pensioners (with some of the class of 96 still involved!)

During Covid and after, led by the indefatigable Bob Cooke, Caldy volunteers including the past and present Chairmen of Rugby all rolled up their sleeves to help manually remodel the grounds to enable a better viewing experience for Nat 1 and subsequently Championship spectators. This involved the movement of many hundreds of tons of rock and soil so that the famous Caldy 'Bank' could accommodate a thousand or so spectators. The current Chairman of Rugby Mark Loughran must have moved a hundred tons on his own throughout the summer of 2022.

Through the efforts of its volunteers Caldy Sports Club provides facilities for the following numbers of junior and adult male and female participants

Rugby  -  850 (includes 100 female and 600 mini/junior/youth)
Cricket -  250 
Hockey -  400
Boules  -    30

Caldy Sports Club is also the home of the 70 strong and amusingly named "Off Pitch" choir which annually raises £ thousands for local charities. (I would have said aptly named "Off Pitch" choir but their choir mistress is formidable as many grizzled senior players and coaches have found out when they have inadvertently disturbed choir rehearsal on a training night. I just wouldn't want to get the wrong side of her !) 
This Community spirit is why Caldy supporters are incensed by the prospect of being displaced in Premiership 2 by a 'brand' like Wasps! How dare the RFU ride roughshod over a club that has grafted so hard and for so long to get to the Championship and then to be displaced by a 'brand' .


You've got my vote Big Eddie 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Greg Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 13:51
All this talk of 'brand' is an absolute nonsense.
'Brands' are not tangible, they do not exist in any three dimensional manner.

One definition, that the RFU and Bill Sweeney need to understand, is:- 

"A brand is the sum of how a product or business is perceived by those who experience it—including customers, investors, employees, the media, and more. Branding is the process of shaping these perceptions."

I think that in the case of Worcester, Wasps and London Irish (and, sadly, Jersey) is that the experience of customers, investors, employees, the media and more, has not been very good, to say the least.

Why, then, would any right-minded individual or organisation want to continue in promoting such a negative company (or brand, if that is how they see the world)?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 13:55
Thanks KnightsBoy
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 14:05
Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

All this talk of 'brand' is an absolute nonsense.
'Brands' are not tangible, they do not exist in any three dimensional manner.

One definition, that the RFU and Bill Sweeney need to understand, is:- 

"A brand is the sum of how a product or business is perceived by those who experience it—including customers, investors, employees, the media, and more. Branding is the process of shaping these perceptions."I think that in the case of Worcester, Wasps and London Irish (and, sadly, Jersey) is that the experience of customers, investors, employees, the media and more, has not been very good, to say the least. Why, then, would any right-minded individual or organisation want to continue in promoting such a negative company (or brand, if that is how they see the world)? 

Greg, that is so right. The 'businesses' behind Wasps and Worcester didn't fail because of Covid or some other reason beyond their control, they failed because they over reached and possibly because of arrogance assuming their brands were such that they were too big to fail.

 That King Billy is so attached to these 'brands' says it all 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 14:16
Covid was massive in prompting the issues we now see.

Surely it's obvious from mini to Pro rugby it has left a massive scar across the game.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 14:32
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

Covid was massive in prompting the issues we now see.

Surely it's obvious from mini to Pro rugby it has left a massive scar across the game.

Personally Paul10 I view the Covid rationale as a convenient excuse for the problems which were already manifest in the Pro and Elite game.

I am a director of a number of businesses. They all faced massive issues during Covid. We made significant adjustments . It was painful but all of the businesses survived. In none of these businesses have we mentioned Covid in the last 18 months or so. 

Still bringing up Covid as a reason for rugby's problems is unlikely to help address rugby's fundamental issues. It will just sweep them under the carpet 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 14:37
Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

Why, then, would any right-minded individual or organisation want to continue in promoting such a negative company (or brand, if that is how they see the world)?

Kudos, love of the game, love of your club, albeit defunct. There's no logic,


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 14:56
Thanks Big E
I may have mis-read the earlier post.

I see Covid as the final straw of some rugby clubs.

Our clubs problem is that so many kids never came back post Covid.

I'd argue that covid made those kids make a decision about rugby that they would otherwise have made in a few years time anyway.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote billesleyexile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 15:20
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

Thanks Big E


I'd argue that covid made those kids make a decision about rugby that they would otherwise have made in a few years time anyway.

I think that's true BUT - and this is the unmeasurable bit - I tend to think of membership, whether club, rotary, masons, church congregation whatever - as a bit like a siphon, running from joining to leaving (for whatever reason). While people are in the pipe they suck other people in.

So yes those kids may well probably have left in a few years time anyway, but if they'd stayed playing that few years longer they might have brought in another couple who might have stayed around forever, or gone to a higher level. But if the numbers overall are down, there's fewer of those connections happening. 

There's also the negative siphon effect of say 4 lads leaving a couple of years early, which means that little Johnny leaves too because all his mates have left, when if it had gone on a few more years he might have been the one to stay on despite them leaving. 

Like I say, it's unmeasurable, but I bet it's true. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 15:35
The rugby siphon.

Beautiful

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 16:25
One of the things that the RFU and King Billy are rather good at is 'spin' and this is difficult to reconcile with their stated aim of treating all member clubs with fairness, integrity in an even handed way.

King Billy acts and talks politically (even though royalty should be above this!). Why is this?

If the RFU was straightforwardly and fairly setting out rugby's issues with no spin or political bias I am sure it would be better for everyone. However, this seems to be beyond them and without trust the game will not come together and prosper.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IainS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Jan 2024 at 22:33
Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

All this talk of 'brand' is an absolute nonsense.
'Brands' are not tangible, they do not exist in any three dimensional manner.

When whoever at the RFU asked rhetorically why wouldn't they want to bring back brands like Wasps, London Irish and Worcester, I thought: Would someone planning the regeneration of town and city centres say: 'Why don't we bring back brands like Woolworth, Debenhams and BHS, surely that's the secret?'

I don't pretend to expertise in brand management, but guess no one says such things because if those brands were so great they wouldn't have failed, they are now associated with failure and their former loyal customers will have moved on and wouldn't necessarily return.

If Wasps reincarnate themselves at Sevenoaks, would they in any sense represent the same brand as the version that played at High Wycombe or Coventry? How many of their former supporters would turn up? Wouldn't they in fact be trying to attract a new support base in which case the old brand would be either irrelevant or a mixed blessing?


Edited by IainS - 19 Jan 2024 at 09:56
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2024 at 09:30
Originally posted by IainS IainS wrote:

Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

All this talk of 'brand' is an absolute nonsense.
'Brands' are not tangible, they do not exist in any three dimensional manner.

When whoever at the RFU asked rhetorically why wouldn't they want to bring back brands like Wasps, London Irish and Worcester, I thought: Would someone planning the regeneration of town and city centres say: 'Why don't we bring back brands like Woolworth, Debenhams and BHS, surely that's the secret?'

I don't pretend to expertise in brand management, but guess no one says such things because if those brands were so great they wouldn't have failed, they are now associated with failure and their former loyal customers will have moved on and wouldn't necessarily return.

If Wasps reincarnate themselves at Sevenoaks, would they in any sense represent the same brand as the version that played at High Wycombe or Coventry? How many of their former supporters would turn up? Wouldn't they in fact be trying to attract a new support base in which the old brand would be either irrelevant or a mixed blessing?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2024 at 12:05
Alternatively some of the existing championship clubs could just change their names to Wasps or London Irish etc. I am joking
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2024 at 13:33
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Alternatively some of the existing championship clubs could just change their names to Wasps or London Irish etc. I am joking

Coventry Wasps has a nice ring to it - don't you agree Kimbo? Wink

Or Coventry Irish to go with Coventry Welsh.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkyMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2024 at 13:33
I’ve read this thread with interest. It doesn’t matter how great your club is, how many volunteers turn up, how big your junior section is, how many seats you’ve got, whether you amateur, semi-pro or full time. Bottom line is not enough people are interested in the game to invest in it. Therefore tough decisions will have to be made, some clubs will go upwards, some down. Some will be formed, but whatever happens the rose tinted specs need to come off and an overhaul is on its way. Fairness is will not come into it. And I hope the change comes quickly as it cannot continue. Small crowds, no facilities, player welfare, no real product is the real issue
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2024 at 13:51
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

There is no magic money tree, and no silver bullet. There is only hard graft, and marginal improvements.



Which is a reason why a Championship club would need at least 5 years after promotion at least to bring their infrastructure up to MSC standards.

However, with Premiership attendances almost static for the last 20 years (Wikipedia), it's hard to see how a newly promoted club could do that without a ground share or significant local authority investment. 

There's a always a CVC type deal where money is offered to develop the game and improve facilities....just like it was last time.

P. S. Whatever happened to Rugby Lions - another club chasing rainbows who went bust and were demoted 6 leagues.

P.P.S. Which Premiership clubs were given time to bring their facilities up to scratch - I thought Leicester was one. 










Bath have been given years to get ground up to standard - still haven't done it.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote John Butler42 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2024 at 15:34
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote IainS Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Jan 2024 at 15:48
Originally posted by MarkyMark MarkyMark wrote:

I’ve read this thread with interest. It doesn’t matter how great your club is, how many volunteers turn up, how big your junior section is, how many seats you’ve got, whether you amateur, semi-pro or full time. Bottom line is not enough people are interested in the game to invest in it. Therefore tough decisions will have to be made, some clubs will go upwards, some down. Some will be formed, but whatever happens the rose tinted specs need to come off and an overhaul is on its way. Fairness is will not come into it. And I hope the change comes quickly as it cannot continue. Small crowds, no facilities, player welfare, no real product is the real issue

Not wishing to have a go at you Marky Mark in particular, but this view is often put as if it is set in stone or divinely ordained how much interest and investment there is or can be in English club rugby.

As I've written elsewhere, if England had the same number of full-time pro clubs per head of population as Scotland it would have 20 and if the same as Ireland then it would have 32. Perhaps the Scots are just massively more interested in rugby than the English, and the Irish positively obsessed, but I think not.

In the early days of pro-rugby some clubs were quicker off the mark than others, or indeed than the RFU, in adjusting to professionalism. Having established themselves, they then acted to pull up the ladder and shut the others out with stadium capacity and tenancy requirements and unequal funding all designed to create a cartel from which for all practical purposes everyone else was excluded. The RFU caved in to this to ensure the Prem would provide players to the England team.

But given this set up it's hardly a surprise that no one (or only a very few) wants to or can afford to invest in the things that might lead to higher crowds, better facilities and the like. Under existing rules, in many ways it would be easier for Coventry Welsh (currently Level 8) to reach the Championship than it would be for Cov as second placed team in the Championship to reach the top tier.

There could have been another world in which, say, all teams in the Prem got equal funding, teams were required to have a capacity of 5,000/6,000, a realistic objective in many grounds if they use temporary stands, incremental improvements were required as you go up the tiers so clubs reaching the Championship will never be far off meeting Prem standards. Aspiration and investment would be encouraged, the league structure dynamic and exciting.

That's not where we are of course, but it seems reasonable, even sensible, to argue that's the direction we should be heading than simply expanding the cartel a bit and making it more difficult to join.


Edited by IainS - 19 Jan 2024 at 16:05
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