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Premiership II plans announced

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Halliford View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2024 at 18:04
What is not mentioned is paying creditors. Have Wuss paid their rugby creditors yet?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2024 at 18:35
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

What is not mentioned is paying creditors. Have Wuss paid their rugby creditors yet?

They owe in excess of thirty million.

London Irish owe the same and Wasps 95 million !


Edited by No 7 - 14 Feb 2024 at 18:39
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2024 at 19:27
Think we can take that as a No - and probably no intention of doing so!
Shouldn't even be up for discussion them coming back into the top levels of rugby - Brand or No Brand! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2024 at 20:38
Originally posted by Thatbloke Thatbloke wrote:

Think we can take that as a No - and probably no intention of doing so!
Shouldn't even be up for discussion them coming back into the top levels of rugby - Brand or No Brand! 


Quite agree - also as a brand they are Failed Brands
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2024 at 21:38
Those levels of debt are eye-watering. It's not a victimless scenario - a lot of people and businesses are owed a lot of money and it may well have put some of them out of business. To suddenly parachute these "brands" back into the Championship would be obscene. As others have said they need to pay back as much of those debts as is possible, then start again at the lowest level and rebuild from there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14 Feb 2024 at 21:52
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Some think they can buy there way in from Nat1 it seems, just a bad as Wuss, Wasps or anyone else who does not achieve their merit on the field of play


Interesting analogy ... so clubs who run their companies professionally and with minimal losses at Level 3, you bracket with 3 x Level 1 clubs who have combined losses of over £150 million pounds ... I think that is a tad harsh if I'm being honest ... since it is clear that Wasps, Worcester & London Irish had business plans that appear to have been pulled together on the back of a cigarette packet ....
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Wobbler Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 00:08
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Some think they can buy there way in from Nat1 it seems, just a bad as Wuss, Wasps or anyone else who does not achieve their merit on the field of play

Who are you referring to?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 08:00
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:


I think that is being a little unfair. I didn't read that as them thinking they had a god given right more that they were happy to take advantage of the situation should it arise. I think the term god given right applies more to Wasps from what I have read.


I read the article with incredulity. There's no expression of sorrow or regret but an assumption of a place in the Championship 

However, we must remember that the article is on a supporters' message board so is likely to be written with hope and optimism whilst wearing rose tinted spectacles. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 10:23
Originally posted by No 7 No 7 wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

What is not mentioned is paying creditors. Have Wuss paid their rugby creditors yet?

They owe in excess of thirty million.

London Irish owe the same and Wasps 95 million !

The key element is the rugby creditors. If the RFU apply their rules, and Conor O’Shea has said they will, none of those 3 Clubs will be allowed to join any League without clearing them.

Non-rugby creditors will have no comeback, just as many businesses fail in the UK and under our corporate laws can return to the same business under a different structure leaving unpaid creditors behind them.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote JAB87 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 10:59
The three failed Premiership clubs did not “return” for the 23-24 season and in my view have therefore forfeited any rights to a place in Tier 2. All the clubs have the opportunity to rebuild on a sustainable basis from the bottom of the pyramid.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 11:12
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:


The key element is the rugby creditors. If the RFU apply their rules, and Conor O’Shea has said they will, none of those 3 Clubs will be allowed to join any League without clearing them.

Non-rugby creditors will have no comeback, just as many businesses fail in the UK and under our corporate laws can return to the same business under a different structure leaving unpaid creditors behind them.

This is the bit that leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. It's as if the clubs in liquidation are of any importance, which they are not. It's the unsecured creditors who are the ones to suffer, usually small businesses. But don't forget that in a relatively recent change, HMRC are no longer Preferential Creditors which means that we, as taxpayers  are underwriting the failure of the clubs to manage their finances. 

The concept of rugby creditors is a pompous piece of regulation that effectively circumvents insolvency legislation. It's all a bit jolly hockey sticks" and cigars and brandy in boardrooms. I'm only bitter because I have suffered as an unsecured creditor and it still give me sleepless nights after 40 years. 




Edited by FHLH - 15 Feb 2024 at 11:19
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Clive Norling Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 11:43
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:


The key element is the rugby creditors. If the RFU apply their rules, and Conor O’Shea has said they will, none of those 3 Clubs will be allowed to join any League without clearing them.

Non-rugby creditors will have no comeback, just as many businesses fail in the UK and under our corporate laws can return to the same business under a different structure leaving unpaid creditors behind them.


This is the bit that leaves a nasty taste in my mouth. It's as if the clubs in liquidation are of any importance, which they are not. It's the unsecured creditors who are the ones to suffer, usually small businesses. But don't forget that in a relatively recent change, HMRC are no longer Preferential Creditors which means that we, as taxpayers  are underwriting the failure of the clubs to manage their finances. 

The concept of rugby creditors is a pompous piece of regulation that effectively circumvents insolvency legislation. It's all a bit jolly hockey sticks" and cigars and brandy in boardrooms. I'm only bitter because I have suffered as an unsecured creditor and it still give me sleepless nights after 40 years. 








What is the definition of a “rugby creditor” please? If you’re trading as a rugby club, technically everyone you owe money to is a “rugby creditor” surely?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 12:29
Originally posted by Clive Norling Clive Norling wrote:

 

What is the definition of a “rugby creditor” please? If you’re trading as a rugby club, technically everyone you owe money to is a “rugby creditor” surely?

The following is taken from RFU Regulation 5:  

“Primary Rugby Creditors” means players, ex-players, coaches, medics, physiotherapists, strength and conditioning coaches and any other worker of a Club who are on the payroll of the Club at the time an Insolvency Event occurs.  

“Secondary Rugby Creditors” means ex-players, any other employee or worker of a Club who is not on the payroll of the Club at the time the Insolvency event occurs, referees, Registered Agents, other rugby clubs or rugby bodies in England or elsewhere, the RFU and any RFU subsidiary or associated undertaking, any Constituent Body and any other person or entity paid directly and exclusively by the Club and who directly supports the ability of that Club to play rugby. For the purposes of this definition, any shareholder with a holding of 10% or more of the Club, or any Director shall not be treated as a Primary Rugby Creditor or a Secondary Rugby Creditor. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 12:34
The following section from Regulation 5 covers what is needed from any Club which has become insolvent:

In addition to the imposition of special measures detailed in regulation 5.5.13 to 5.5.23 above and the requirements set out in Appendix 1 to this Regulation 5, the Phoenix Entity will be required to satisfy the following:   
(a) The Phoenix Entity must pay all outstanding Primary Rugby Creditors monies owed up to the date on which the Insolvency Event occurred, net of the amount that such Primary Rugby Creditors are entitled to (for example if receiving a payment from the Redundancy Payments Office) within 28 days of being granted a licence to play in one of the RFU’s Leagues.   
(b) Subject to Regulation 5.7.3(c), the Phoenix Entity must pay, reach agreement to settle and/or reach agreement to defer any sums owing up to the date on which the Insolvency Event occurred in full or in part (in all such cases providing evidence to the RFU of such agreement in each individual case) all Secondary Rugby Creditors within 28 days of being granted a license to play in one of the RFU’s Leagues.   
(c) To the extent any Secondary Rugby Creditors are disputed by the Phoenix Entity, such dispute together with supporting evidence shall be submitted to the RFU within 28 days of being granted a license to play in one of the RFU’s leagues. The RFU, or any person or organisation appointed by the RFU for such purpose, will determine whether such creditor is a legitimate creditor and falls within the definition of Secondary Rugby Creditor and will notify its decision to the Phoenix Entity. If the RFU decides in its discretion that the disputed Secondary Rugby Creditor should be paid pursuant to these Regulations, the Phoenix Entity must pay such Secondary Rugby Creditor within 28 days of notification of the RFU’s decision to the Phoenix Entity;  
(d) The Phoenix Entity must provide a bond to the RFU to guarantee its obligations to the RFU. This bond must be deposited in cash with the RFU and the RFU will hold it for a period of three years from the start of the following Season. The RFU is entitled to use the bond to fulfil any obligations of the existing club or the Phoenix Entity as set out in the agreement to be entered into with the RFU and to meet any liabilities that the RFU reasonably believes should be paid in order to help safeguard the future existence for the club or to compensate any party in the case of any default of the Phoenix Entity. The bond will be the greater of the total amount of any Primary Rugby Creditors and Secondary Rugby Creditors as at the date of the issuing of the license to the Phoenix Entity to assume the position of the insolvent Club in the relevant League or 10% of the average projected annual turnover for the Phoenix Entity as set out for its first two years of trading in its business plan, or such other amount as determined by the RFU having regard to the particular circumstances in each case;  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 13:21
I thought it was creditors with odd shaped balls.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 13:45
On those terms above Wasps, Worcester and London Irish will never return.

Edited by No 7 - 15 Feb 2024 at 13:45
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote neyland22 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15 Feb 2024 at 15:28
They won’t be missed 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tulip Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2024 at 09:04
The term “Rugby Creditors” worries me All money owed by a rugby club should be rugby creditors. Why should the pork pie supplier miss out because his business is not rugby related 

Edited by tulip - 16 Feb 2024 at 09:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2024 at 09:49
Originally posted by tulip tulip wrote:

The term “Rugby Creditors” worries me All money owed by a rugby club should be rugby creditors. Why should the pork pie supplier miss out because his business is not rugby related 

Because UK Insolvency regulations allow it! Companies can become insolvent, go into administration and restructure themselves leaving behind unsecured creditors. I think it is a major weakness of insolvency law but it is an argument that I can't win with entrepreneurs who say that they have to take a risk to succeed and if at first you don't succeed try, try and try again.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16 Feb 2024 at 15:08
Originally posted by FHLH FHLH wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:


I think that is being a little unfair. I didn't read that as them thinking they had a god given right more that they were happy to take advantage of the situation should it arise. I think the term god given right applies more to Wasps from what I have read.


I read the article with incredulity. There's no expression of sorrow or regret but an assumption of a place in the Championship 

However, we must remember that the article is on a supporters' message board so is likely to be written with hope and optimism whilst wearing rose tinted spectacles. 

I really can't see any assumption of a place in the Championship. Optimism yes but no assumption. 

You are quite right of course that is the supporters speaking and that's the key point. They aren't the ones who should be offering sorrow and regret as they had little to do with the behaviour of their previous owners. In actual fact they were very much against them and were expressing severe concerns about their business plan (or lack of one) almost as soon as they took control.
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