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Premiership II plans announced
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Scrumtime View Drop Down
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Points: 835 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Scrumtime Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28 Dec 2023 at 23:13
On reading many things on this site from a lot of people who have been around the game for sometime and know what they are talking about.

I cannot for the life of me understand why, with the backing of member clubs, Sweeney and his over paid employed gang have not been called to task over the running of the game.

The RFU are judge, jury and executioner on everything, but they are very clearly not fit for purpose.

Nobody has any interest in Prem II, The Champ sides made that very clear. The RFU have no interest in the club game, just as long as he ( Sweeney) gets his £650k a year and his list of henchmen and women he's surrounded himself with are all on north of £300k, they could not careless what happens at Caldy in the Champ or an Old Boys club in counties 7.

The best rugby league in the ladder in National 1 and now they want to mess about with it.Why? what experience do they have to say its not working 
They have done that at level 4 by making that 3 leagues, which, and its my view, was very wrong, it should have stayed at 2...with a play off

So Its time the clubs at the grass roots of this game, and Im talking Champ downwards to take this by the scruff of the neck and said enough. We are fed up being walked all over by a team of people that are clueless about the club game

Because if they do not, outside the Prem, this game will collapse.

There are some very well educated people that read Rolling Maul... I would said it would be less than a month before you have enough votes to call and EGM and take these clowns at Twickenham to task and have a sea of change and regain control of the game... Not let the like of Wasps and Worcester go bust with 10's of millions of pounds of debt and say, its ok lads we will get you back in Prem II. 

The NCA is fast becoming a puppet 
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The responses since my last post are understandable but they are missing my point of why I posted in the first place. Everyone on this forum knows that the current RFU leadership is in a bad place. They are over-paid individuals who want to give second chances to defunct clubs who have gone bust owing millions to creditors whilst at the same time saying that millions has been paid into the Championship for no return. Their approach is beyond belief. So how do the Championship sides fight back? Let's put together a blueprint for what we want. I have made a start, albeit rather simplistic, and now I am asking the other forum members who are much more knowledgeable than me, to post their ideas?
Always trying to stay bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.
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I do not think it's just the Champ clubs. I think you can include all  of National one  as they are just about to screw that up in a fully fashioned way by telling the clubs its now two divisions and I would say the majority of the others going downwards. 



Edited by Scrumtime - 29 Dec 2023 at 07:42
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Originally posted by Cherub Cherub wrote:

Is it not a good idea to put down in writing a template of what the Championship sides want going forward. I can start things off. Please feel free to add some ideas, mock my suggestions, and suggest amendments, but let's see if we can build up a blueprint.

I am assuming the premiership will remain a ten club outfit.

I am suggesting the Championship becomes a 14 team league, with the top three teams from National League One joining in.

TEAMS
1.     Ealing Trailfinders
2.     Coventry
3.     Bedford
4.     Doncaster
5.     Cornish Pirates
6.     Hartpury College
7.     Ampthill
8.     Caldy
9.     Cambridge
10.     London Scottish
11.     Nottingham
12.     Chinnor
13.     Rams
14.     Plymouth Albion

PROMOTION AND RELEGATION
•     There will be no play offs.
•     The team who finishes top of the Championship will be promoted to the Premiership, swapping places with the bottom team in the Premiership.
•     The team who finishes top of the Championship must have a ground capacity of 5,001 plus.
•     The two teams who finish bottom in the Championship will be relegated and replaced by the top two sides in National League One.

SQUADS
•     The squads for each Championship side cannot exceed 35.
•     Full details of the squad must be submitted one week before the first game of the season.
•     The introduction of a transfer window in January every year.

FUNDING
•     The RFU will fund each club with a minimum of £500,000 per annum.
•     A TV contract will be agreed to show live Championship matches with the monies being split equally between all the Championship sides.

Just a bit of fun really with a serious hidden side.


In the spirit of this post, I'd add/change the following:

* RFU funds to be prioritized for capital investment (e.g. seating, floodlights) and club costs (e.g. insurance, travel) until minimum standards met.

* If there is no T.V. interest from anyone, then let the clubs at least offer a streaming service or be bundled into PRTV.

* Introduction of weekly injury reports.

* Salary cap set at 2/3rds of Premiership salary cap.

* No bar on Championship players being picked for England or Saxons.

* Abolishment of current academy system.
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tigerburnie View Drop Down
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Why pick on the academy system? I don't understand what is peoples problem, last week Leicester Tigers fielded eight of their former academy players, alright they didn't play that well, but the point is the system is producing international quality players. Three recent ones to name who have all played for England before they were 21, Van Poortvleit, Chessum and Martin, all products of the Tigers academy, in the wings Hayes, Whitcombe and another Chessum, it ain't broke, the facilities at Leicester, along with their tie ups with Brooksby college and DeMontfort University and Loughborough Uni mean the young players get an academic as well as rugby education second to none. I understand that Saracens is similar and has produced players like Itoje. 
Some on here have this hatred(and that is not an exaggeration I don't think) of the Premiership clubs is based on what, you don't like the deal the RFU did with the clubs to get access to the clubs players? That is not the fault of the PRL, that is the RFU's doing, they hold the purse strings. This seems to be the classic "divide and rule" scenario, get your opponents falling out with each other and you can do what you want, the common problem for ALL rugby clubs is the current RFU do not act on behalf of the game and it's best interests. They sat and watched clubs go under due to financial problems before Wasps, Worcester and London Irish hit the wall. The RFU with it's inaction directly caused the problems with Jersey, had the proper application of good governance taken place, Jersey Reds would now be playing in the Premiership, that was solely and directly caused by the inaction of the RFU governing body.
I have never looked at the RFU accounts, so have no idea where the money goes, but clearly it does not all go to the PRL. I do not know how the RFU were allowed to just stop supporting the Championship, nor do I know why they stopped helping clubs in the National leagues with things like travel costs, I would ask why did the clubs not register their objections to this at the time? Why have the RFU been allowed to just run the game so badly? Why are the RFU allowed to go against their own rules regarding Wasps for example and saying they will be supported in joining the league at the highest possible level? Why were other clubs forced to follow the rules and start again at the bottom and work their way back up the leagues by on field results?
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Well said sir 
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Mark W-J View Drop Down
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Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

The Championship teams stick together and the franchises are dead in the water and so is the RFU, this is a  war, sadly there are rarely winners in such situations.
I hope they stick together - I fear that one or two may break ranks when the RFU raise the heat.
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If the present solidarity among the Championship clubs doesn't hold the RFU will continue with their neglect of the game generally. The lack of any real governance of English Rugby is probably one of the biggest scandals in sport - globally.

If the RFU was properly constituted the shocking financial shenanigans perpetrated in the last 20 wouldn't have occurred. My view on the reason that the RFU's Executive Management can get away with such blatant undemocratic, unfair and frankly shameful skewed allocation of resources is that the clubs do not work together to unpick this unsavory governance structure which aids and abets this disgraceful behavior.

To fight against this will require a detailed and forensic understanding of the RFU's archaic and self serving structure. A full understanding will enable effort to be directed in the right direction to exert the maximum pressure on the Executive Management.

I am going to put out a call for Camquin, Scrumtime, Workerbee and FLH's assistance. They seem to be very knowledgeable posters as far as the constitution and bye laws of the RFU are concerned.



Edited by Big Eddie - 29 Dec 2023 at 13:10
''The future isn't what it used to be''
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gerg_861 View Drop Down
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A bit more info here :https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/inside-rfu-war-championship-rugby-2826368

I was particularly interested in the statement that RFU plan for investment is in the low 10s of millions over the next 8 years. If I am as generous as possible to the RFU, and assume £40m over 8 years, that would be £5m/ year. If you split that between 14 clubs, then you get £350k per club per year. Not very enticing to give up on meritocracy and move to a franchise model.
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Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

Why pick on the academy system? I don't understand what is peoples problem, last week Leicester Tigers fielded eight of their former academy players, alright they didn't play that well, but the point is the system is producing international quality players. Three recent ones to name who have all played for England before they were 21, Van Poortvleit, Chessum and Martin, all products of the Tigers academy, in the wings Hayes, Whitcombe and another Chessum, it ain't broke, the facilities at Leicester, along with their tie ups with Brooksby college and DeMontfort University and Loughborough Uni mean the young players get an academic as well as rugby education second to none. I understand that Saracens is similar and has produced players like Itoje. 


I would refer you to this post, which makes a very coherent argument. 
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I am not against the overall idea of Prem 2, it just needs better execution and probably with most things it is a start of a negotiation at one end and the Championship are at the other and it will end up in the middle.  Hopefully almost going back to the Allied Dunbar Premiership 2 days.

Pros
1. Limiting Premiership squads so talent and generally younger talent should filter down the leagues, giving Prem 2 clubs to access potential future stars and opportunities to develop exciting squads.  This only works if Prem 2 are funded properly. Having more clubs taking on talent means there will be a greater coverage of the UK to not miss out on talent. e.g. someone living in Liverpool would have to go to Sale at present for an RFU academy, if Caldy had more funds and resources it may develop that next international superstar which may have slipped through the net.

2. Having the RFU pay £150k towards player contracts to give them the access for the national side, although players may not like being cut one year and losing such a huge amount of money - this also still won't stop players going to France

3. Improving the grounds to accommodate more people whilst providing a better experience, with floodlights and frost covers mandatory to reduce cancelled games and enable television to broadcast games. We have to accept some grounds in this league look like your local village side. Doesn't encourage broadcasting or sponsorship, as sponsors want free tickets in a stand with some form of comfortable hospitality.

4. Premiership shares values being questioned

5. England A games

6. We all say France has multiple pro divisions, the RFU should follow suit

Cons
1. Teams must be there on merit and not cherrypicked, brands come and go, that is life. Roll back 13 ish years there was no Exeter Chiefs for example. 

Must be sorted
1. Funding needs to be closer between Prem 1 and Prem 2 and for those clubs lacking infrastructure some of the funds could be made to go towards ground development. Any newly promoted club should have a 3 year period to improve the ground. I always felt for Moseley as they did just this, developed a stand diverting funds away from the squad and ended up relegated with a stand, so any new entrant to Prem 2 would not have to sort the ground straightaway but have a 3 year timeframe to make the developments. 

2. Promotions and relegation needs to be in place for all clubs, as failure and success needs to be punished and rewarded

3. A financial fair play system should be implemented to ensure sustainability, we don't want clubs losings a funder and going bust (Wasps, Irish, Worcester, Jersey), so spending within means based on turnover.  This has to apply in the Prem 1 too. This would encourage clubs to grow and any unrealistic sponsorship from a rich owner needs to be monitored.

4. What I am going to call PDP - Player Development Payments.  The way things work is by the flow of money, so my revolutionary idea in brief for the RFU, Prem 1 and Prem 2, is that each will end up paying lower division clubs, juniors/mini's and schools for players they sign.  So the RFU would pay all entities for international players where the England team, U20's etc. for the development.  There could be milestone payments too.  Similarly any Prem 1 or Prem 2 club has to pay a lower division club for signing players - even out of contract - call it an RFU registration transfer payment. This would reward those who develop and provide finding to aid future development.  Even a few thousand for schools would go a long way.

e.g. Twelvetrees - Blues would receive a payment from Tigers when he was re-signed. When Twelvetrees became an international the RFU would pay Tigers, Blues, then any other entity in his overall development maybe Leicester Lions and the school.  May take a bit of admin but you could shave enough off some of the big salaries the top ones earn to cover it. It would also encourage schools to keep playing or introduce rugby to the curriculum. 

Pure fantasy

1. I can't see how and in fact why should any club not in the Championship can buy their way in. Wasps (in particular) would be able to pass the criteria, as where is the crowd, it would be hard enough for Darlington MP to understand what they need to do to compete even at the bottom end of the league! They are towards the bottom of ND1. When Blues were relegated from the Prem and all they had was a crowd and a place to play rugby (better than the other two mentioned). We had to get a new DoR and a whole new squad, we thought it would challenge at the top but only just survived in the first season in ND1 as it was.

I have probably bored people enough here so will stop!
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So Sweeney and his merry gang according to the rugby paper have told the Champ clubs your either in to what we want or face relegation 

Yet again : Judge, Jury and Executioner 

Is he sure ? 

Is that press report true ?? 

Time to mobilise the troops .. 
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LS Lions and their Minis play at King's House School Sports Grounds. The prep school bought the old Civil Service Grounds. The Civil Service and Quintin RFC play there too. Quintin's own grounds nearby in Chiswick were developed with a 3G pitch by the Quintin Hogg Trust but the club choose to play at King's House. The 3G planning permission included provision for a new clubhouse but that hasn't been built yet which probably explains why the adult club chose to stay at KHS.

The school has poured in lots of investment to upgrade the grounds and host various hockey, tennis, rugby and football clubs to try to make the grounds pay their way.

I don't think London Scottish would be granted permission to build stands of a size to meet the RFU's (even revised) minimum capacity on that particular piece of MOL (Metropolitan Open Land) flanking the Thames. Having brought the roads round there to a standstill with the Rosslyn Park and Middlesex Mini Festivals I have hosted at King's House Sports Grounds over the years I doubt a Premiership 2 club would be allowed to be based there without considerable change to the surrounding road infrastructure.

Apologies for the long-winded post. 
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I think Sweeney has forgotten the amount of money he and the Premiership owners have poured into the Premiership far outweighs anything that has gone into the Championship which has been pretty much neglected.

3 Premiership clubs to 1 Championships club gone bust last season.

RFU wasted a fortune on Eddie Jones and for pretty much 2 decades after England win the World Cup we have been shockingly poor. Yes we have reached 2 World Cup finals but each time we managed to break the record of being the worst team to ever make it there! The only time England were good was under Lancaster until he believed his own hype and then didn’t select the best teams for non rugby reasons.

Both the RFU and Premiership need to get their house in order and up to the standards of the Championship, which survives on nothing but unwanted criticism!
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Nick Cain, in today's Rugby Paper, writes upon the possible RFU plans. "This involves the creation of either a European or British & Irish Super League, which would probably be the deathknell of the European Cup. The structure is for the top six of the 10 Premiership clubs, along with the same number from the URC and Top 14, playing in the Super League.

The remaining four Premiership clubs drop into “Premiership 2”, which, combined with the Phoenix clubs and three more new franchise teams, creates a 10-strong second tier."
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Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Nick Cain, in today's Rugby Paper, writes upon the possible RFU plans. "This involves the creation of either a European or British & Irish Super League, which would probably be the deathknell of the European Cup. The structure is for the top six of the 10 Premiership clubs, along with the same number from the URC and Top 14, playing in the Super League.

The remaining four Premiership clubs drop into “Premiership 2”, which, combined with the Phoenix clubs and three more new franchise teams, creates a 10-strong second tier."


I can't see the French giving up their league for that suggestion.

Anglo-Welsh is doable to bring a few more clubs in.
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I could see the Welsh sides joining the Premiership, ideally with Black Lion and Tel Aviv Heat joining the URC, but I suspect it would be two more South African sides.

That would give three leagues of 14 - though that does mean playing through the international windows.
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The reason for the RFU to want to do that is then they would suddenly say we can use English players at French clubs!

The RFU shoots itself in the foot, it should picks the best players wherever they play.
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With the CVC investment in both the Premiership and URC it makes sense for a combined British and Irish* league as a top tier. It is what happens below that is the sticking point. 

* plus the Italian and South African sides, although I personally prefer the latter to play in their own domestic competition. 
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Indeed for me the introduction of the South African clubs in the once European Champions Cup made the competition meaningless even before the bizarre fixtures re-organisation. 
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