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Sell all the RFU's assets to the highest bidder

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Runitback View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 Jan 2024 at 21:39
Big Eddie . . . I totally agree with your plan
Run with it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Nat1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 07:59
Originally posted by Greg Greg wrote:

This is all getting rather 'unecessary'. Let's move on and all play nicely together.
That the game of Rugby Union in this country (and others, incidentally) is at a crossroads is not in any doubt. What is not clear to anybody (it would seem) is the best way forward.


Well said Greg. Having read through the reams of back and forth above, it might be time for everyone to move on. 

For what it's worth - probably not much! - I actually find myself agreeing with Berksrugby. Selling Twickenham? Forcibly removing the RFU? Really? That all has a whiff of rabble rousing about it, maybe a march on Downing St or the DCMS next?

The fans and volunteers I see every week are happy with their rugby, why start meddling. After all, and as the late, great, Doris Day said 'Que sera sera'.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 09:23
Originally posted by Runitback Runitback wrote:

Big Eddie . . . I totally agree with your plan

Thank you Runitback. This section of Rolling Maul is here to debate issues that are not about the playing of the game.

I believe that the lack of governance of the RFU and the current direction of travel by an unelected and unaccountable Executive Management and board is a matter of upmost concern. I have highlighted a radical but logical alternative which hopefully will make rugby supporters in the Community Game think about is happening to their sport 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 09:58
I'm all for creative thinking but remain very sceptical of this proposal. RFU is a mutual not a company. What happens to debenture holders?

However it's a debate.

I am a member of a community club. I go to Saints games every other month and Bedford every other year. Haven't been to an international since 2015.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 12:16
Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

Interesting and well thought out idea?! It is madness, pure and simple.

Have you taken leave of your senses rugbychris? Then again, who isn't partial to a free handout now and then.

LOL



Perhaps instead of criticising and insulting others you could offer your solution to the problem? 

WEvans, 

Please refer to points 1), 2) and 4) in my longer post above for an answer to your question. 

No insult intended, but clearly there are some thin-skinned rugby folk out there on this forum.

I have studied your reply and see no answer to my question. Just more insults.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 12:33
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

I'm all for creative thinking but remain very sceptical of this proposal. RFU is a mutual not a company. What happens to debenture holders?

However it's a debate.

I am a member of a community club. I go to Saints games every other month and Bedford every other year. Haven't been to an international since 2015.

Paul10,

There would be a helluva lot of detail to delve through and understand with the debenture holders being just one part and probably one of the easiest parts. Debenture holders are providers of debt to the RFU and a sale of the RFU would almost certainly preserve their position.

However, as you say this is a debate. My intention in pushing out such a radical idea was to stimulate debate and to draw to the attention of English Club rugby as a whole that they are being disenfranchised by an unelected Executive Management and board of the RFU

Based upon the RFU's reported 2023 profit before rugby investment of £103m and adding back depreciation of £19m arrives at an EBITDA (Earnings before Interest, Tax, Depreciation and Amortisation) number of £122m, I expect a business generating these type of returns to be worth a multiple of between 8 to 10 times and possibly a much higher multiple. Giving a conservative value range of some £976 million to £1.22billion for the RFU and it could be a far higher value particularly if the RFU was better managed.

99.9% of this huge value belongs to the Community Clubs.....at present they are getting very,very little of such value and my fear is that with the current direction of travel by the Executive Management they will in future get absolutely none of this value which may continue to be stealthily appropriated by the Professional Game and its private equity partners CVC.

Do I think this will really happen ?.......I certainly do because the game is so divided and the Executive Management of the RFU is so all powerful and unaccountable as to make this invisible takeover for numpence almost the perfect scenario for a private equity player like CVC


Edited by Big Eddie - 11 Jan 2024 at 12:52
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berksrugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 13:02
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

Interesting and well thought out idea?! It is madness, pure and simple.

Have you taken leave of your senses rugbychris? Then again, who isn't partial to a free handout now and then.

LOL



Perhaps instead of criticising and insulting others you could offer your solution to the problem? 

WEvans, 

Please refer to points 1), 2) and 4) in my longer post above for an answer to your question. 

No insult intended, but clearly there are some thin-skinned rugby folk out there on this forum.

I have studied your reply and see no answer to my question. Just more insults.

In the interests of not sending other posters to sleep WEvans, I'll keep this very brief.

In order to find and offer solutions to a problem, there must first be an identifiable problem, which in the case of the week to week running of the actual community game, there is not.

That is the way of the world we live in and that is the way of those of sound mind. By virtue of this, that is what is covered in points 1), 2) and 4).


Edited by Berksrugby - 11 Jan 2024 at 15:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 15:26
Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

In the interests of not sending other posters to sleep WEvans, I'll keep this very brief.

In order to find and offer solutions to a problem, there must first be an identifiable problem, which in this case there is not.


Really?? The game of rugby is in deep trouble on all fronts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berksrugby Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 15:46
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

In the interests of not sending other posters to sleep WEvans, I'll keep this very brief.

In order to find and offer solutions to a problem, there must first be an identifiable problem, which in this case there is not.


Really?? The game of rugby is in deep trouble on all fronts.

Original post edited - just for absolute clarity, and for the benefit of those finding this all a bit too much to grasp. Apologies Big Eddie, my computer illiteracy prevents me from knowing how to type in your preferred Comrade Red font. 

N.B. I really do think it would be good to move on from this 'back and forth' that someone else described it as. I'll therefore refrain from any further posts on this topic.


Edited by Berksrugby - 11 Jan 2024 at 16:15
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 16:09
I took it to mean "a single identifiable problem"

As in define the problem to plan a solution

Maybe in Berks we have different issues to others, Bracknell run 4 mens teams in the leagues, Reading 3 + a vets, Rams did have 4 but think they have dropped one through lack of space (they have stopped all further mini and jnr registration. 

We also as a county have no rfu agp at all, we either have to rent the (aging) one at Maidenhead rfc or find a school with one. 

We are a small CB with less travel than a lot and a good mix of teams from as has been said the likes of Shire Hall (the ex Berks county Council social club team that has outlasted the council) via Reading, Bracknell, Maids & Newbury to Rams with other community clubs like Reading Abbey, Windsor and Hungerford as well. 

We also have 2 women's champ teams (Abbey & Newbury) plus Henley a stones throw away with Quins and Trail finders women a short journey away. 

Our issues are more to do with teenagers (both sexes) being siphoned off to colleges/academies with promise of riches, leaving clubs with a smaller conveyor into snr teams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 16:17
Originally posted by Big Eddie Big Eddie wrote:

Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

In the interests of not sending other posters to sleep WEvans, I'll keep this very brief.

In order to find and offer solutions to a problem, there must first be an identifiable problem, which in this case there is not.


Really?? The game of rugby is in deep trouble on all fronts.

This would never pass a root cause analysis. You are working on a premises that because X has a problem, Y and Z must also have the same problem and therefore if we solve Xs problem we have also solved Y and Z problem.

The fact is there are many problems and different parts of the game have different issues. You are taking the proverbial sledgehammer to crack a nut when sometimes to need to apply a scalpel. 

1.Championship clubs have an issue around the structure of the competition going forward. Almost zero Impact on rest of members clubs, then only those clubs looking at promotion into second tier. 

2.National 1 clubs have an issue about splitting the league. General impact, a reorganisation of the league structure, happens almost every other season and the game goes one. Some would say it's an occupational hazard. 

3.Tackle height. No matter what people think, it's a done deal. Legally, both codes have to do something to mitigate the potential dangers now they are aware of things. It's no different to knowing about the danger of asbestos and simply ignoring it when doing work on a building

4.RFU governance/distribution of RFU money to Premiership clubs.  This is a potentially large issue but you are failing miserably to sell the problem to the likes of Old Farts RFC who don't see any effect to them ad they never got any money anyway and most decisions at their level is taken by the County and not the upper echelon of the game. It is these clubs that you need to influence and identify with them and their concerns and I'll tell you now it is not the first two points but you seem to want to lump them together. That's an immediate switch off. 



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Big Eddie View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 16:40
Fair comment in some ways Richard. 

I accept that there are different problems in different areas and in the case of Berkshire from what Berksrugby and Dad have put forward that County seems to be bucking the trend as far as participation is concerned.

However for me there is one huge problem that affects every club below the Premiership and that is the lack of accountability and democracy within the RFU which is led by an unelected Executive Management which in my view is leading the sport into the hands of Private Equity.

If the RFU acted in the way of a Limited Company (which in its latest accounts it professes that it does) then any significant decision would require the consent of 50% of the shareholders and any really important decision the consent of 75% of the shareholders.

Seismic changes in the way that the game of rugby is structured in England can be passed by the say so of the unelected board. This is what I fervently object to.

If such seismic changes needed a 75% or even a 66% majority of all the clubs in England I would have no complaints because that would be democratic.

I have set out what I believe is the value of the RFU being £1bn + and this is owned by all the circa 2,000 clubs in the UK. At present the very significant majority of this value is used to support the Professional Game and if unchecked I believe all of this value will be ceded for no compensation to the Professional Game and its private equity partner CVC.

If a 75% or 66% majority of the circa 2,000 clubs are content for this to happen who am I to rail against it. In these circumstances such an outcome would be democratic.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 16:47
For what it is worth I think everyone on here thinks the governance stinks, but if you are going to get change especially with the aforementioned block voting of the forces/oxbridge you need to engage pretty much every other voter

That means a simple clearly explained problem/how it affects your club/solution that chimes with lv10 old farts rfc and ambitious Nat1 teams
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 17:01
Originally posted by Dad Dad wrote:

For what it is worth I think everyone on here thinks the governance stinks, but if you are going to get change especially with the aforementioned block voting of the forces/oxbridge you need to engage pretty much every other voter

That means a simple clearly explained problem/how it affects your club/solution that chimes with lv10 old farts rfc and ambitious Nat1 teams

I don't disagree Dad. However, as others have said there are a multitude of problems and issues that beset the circa 2,000 clubs in differing ways. Until there is a unity of purpose then King Billy is safe in his castle where he reigns supreme because there is absolutely no effective voice that can challenge him.

The one thing that should bind all clubs is that they all own the RFU which I believe is conservatively worth £1bn plus. If the clubs believe that their £500k share of this value is going to be or could be appropriated by the Professional Game and its private equity partner CVC wouldn't that galvanise their thinking?




Edited by Big Eddie - 11 Jan 2024 at 17:02
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JohnLowe Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 19:04
Don’t you think we are at risk of conflating two different subjects. I, for one, am totally against clubs who have gone bust being parachuting into a new Premiership 2 (sorry Islander),  whilst at the same time, recognising the need to turn it (if possible) into a high standard operation  playing in good, well supported facilities within a commercially successful, viable structure that can best serve English rugby, both internationally and domestically, going forward.  Sadly I don’t think that the RFU’s current proposals do that.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Big Eddie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 19:40
Originally posted by JohnLowe JohnLowe wrote:

Don’t you think we are at risk of conflating two different subjects. I, for one, am totally against clubs who have gone bust being parachuting into a new Premiership 2 (sorry Islander),  whilst at the same time, recognising the need to turn it (if possible) into a high standard operation  playing in good, well supported facilities within a commercially successful, viable structure that can best serve English rugby, both internationally and domestically, going forward.  Sadly I don’t think that the RFU’s current proposals do that.

I don't fundamentally disagree John. 

However, if there is to be a basis for changing the rules and the structures which isn't based on merit put the arguments to the member clubs and pass a threshold which should be at least 50% but more reasonably 66% or 75%

Otherwise let merit decide who goes into Premiership II and it shouldn't include any of the clubs who went so spectacularly bust.

If there is promotion and relegation the playing field will decide on the continuing composition of Premiership II and it should decide on the composition of the Premiership as well
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 Jan 2024 at 20:08
Representatives from 21 teams formed the RFU c150 years ago. Lausanne, Gipsies, Clapham rovers, flamingoes etc The RFU was created by the clubs. Now c2000 clubs exist without any direct contact or consultation with the governing body on the future or direction of the game. Intentional or not the RFU is no longer fit for purpose.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2024 at 15:53
Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by Berksrugby Berksrugby wrote:

Interesting and well thought out idea?! It is madness, pure and simple.

Have you taken leave of your senses rugbychris? Then again, who isn't partial to a free handout now and then.

LOL



Perhaps instead of criticising and insulting others you could offer your solution to the problem? 

WEvans, 

Please refer to points 1), 2) and 4) in my longer post above for an answer to your question. 

No insult intended, but clearly there are some thin-skinned rugby folk out there on this forum.

I have studied your reply and see no answer to my question. Just more insults.

In the interests of not sending other posters to sleep WEvans, I'll keep this very brief.

In order to find and offer solutions to a problem, there must first be an identifiable problem, which in the case of the week to week running of the actual community game, there is not.

That is the way of the world we live in and that is the way of those of sound mind. By virtue of this, that is what is covered in points 1), 2) and 4).

You surely cannot be serious with your highlighted comment but even if you are then you could still stop insulting people who think otherwise.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote A. Gorilla Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2024 at 18:17
I'm still new to this forum, what assets are we talking about selling off? It's only really Twickers that's of great value.

Edited by A. Gorilla - 12 Jan 2024 at 18:18
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Jan 2024 at 19:29
Originally posted by A. Gorilla A. Gorilla wrote:

I'm still new to this forum, what assets are we talking about selling off? It's only really Twickers that's of great value.

Also the rights to play games £££


Edited by FHLH - 12 Jan 2024 at 19:29
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