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PiffPaff View Drop Down
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Points: 1126 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PiffPaff Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 12:39
cpk, thanks for clarification. I think we can quote something from the start of the Pandemic "we are in this together", rugby both codes will never be the same again. Ambition for every single club now should not be "can we get promoted when rugby restarts" it should be can we survive until rugby restarts.

I was possibly being a bit facetious re:Highlights, pretty sure the RFU still run the EliteHub where all games from Level 1 to Level 4/5 are uploaded by each club.Issue with that is, one fixed camera normally, varying quality in both video and sound and it would need someone to edit it all together.
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The wider worry is that once the current incumbent Championship clubs and big spending National 1 clubs try to take control of the levels from current L2 down, we will get turbo charged semi pro rugby that is even more of a financial mess than it is now.

I feel sorry to a degree for the Championship clubs who can rightly point to a lack of support from the RFU in making it a “proper professional entity” but it has failed because the economics simply don’t support it.

If we in the lower tiers were showing inverted snobbery we could point out those clubs have had millions of pounds in central funding and have built literally nothing with it apart from a culture where everything is about money and little about sustainability never mind developing the game.

Excuse me if I choke on the irony that those clubs will now be the bastions of a community game. If this self interest persists and the existing community clubs allow that to shape any restructure then it will either result in leaving those spendthrift clubs in no mans land or holding the rest of the game to their unaffordable view of the game. 
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Points: 1395 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 13:25
Originally posted by Hopping Mad Hopping Mad wrote:

The wider worry is that once the current incumbent Championship clubs and big spending National 1 clubs try to take control of the levels from current L2 down, we will get turbo charged semi pro rugby that is even more of a financial mess than it is now.

I feel sorry to a degree for the Championship clubs who can rightly point to a lack of support from the RFU in making it a “proper professional entity” but it has failed because the economics simply don’t support it.

If we in the lower tiers were showing inverted snobbery we could point out those clubs have had millions of pounds in central funding and have built literally nothing with it apart from a culture where everything is about money and little about sustainability never mind developing the game.

Excuse me if I choke on the irony that those clubs will now be the bastions of a community game. If this self interest persists and the existing community clubs allow that to shape any restructure then it will either result in leaving those spendthrift clubs in no mans land or holding the rest of the game to their unaffordable view of the game. 


Could I suggest you look at the Nottingham Community page before you start attacking everyone for their self interest , and little interest in sustainability. Not all clubs are the same and Nottingham's Community team has been running for well over 10 years as I ran it for a number of years prior to the Championship even existing
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Points: 18 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Deerhunter2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 14:02
“ Excuse me if I choke on the irony that those clubs will now be the bastions of a community game. If this self interest persists and the existing community clubs allow that to shape any restructure then it will either result in leaving those spendthrift clubs in no mans land or holding the rest of the game to their unaffordable view of the game.“

You may consider it ironic, but I would suggest you look a little further into the community engagement of Champ clubs. Bedford Junior Blues has been in existence for over 30 years, for kids 6-16, meeting every Sunday. Blues community, runs holiday coaching, breakfast clubs, after school clubs and specialised coaching,the newly formed charitable arm the Blues foundation, plus many charity collection days, not least the annual ladies day, for McMillan. That is without the former players association, Friends of the Blues, and the supporters club.
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Points: 6266 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 14:25
Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:



Rugby, although not as big as Football, has a large following in England. I'm sure they would get reasonable viewing figures for 1 live match a week.

Yes, Saracens are only likely to be in the Championship for 1 season - but what better time to sort out a TV deal on terrestrial TV.


No International Rugby has a large following; numbers elsewhere are chicken feed, whether it be attendances (unless it is a contrived club fixture at Wembley, Twickenham etc) or TV viewing. 

The fourth tier of English football is about where most Rugby Premiership attendances are at. 

http://rd.premiershiprugby.com/stats/attendance.php (strangely not given as averages.)


Premiership rugby attendances are a lot higher than Football League 2 (the 4th level)

Averaged out and excluding the 'one-off special games - tickets for a £10 etc' they are not. Saracens and Bath's  ground capacity are 10,000 and are rarely full. 


Wasps have 20000-odd seats going spare too (even with the massive amount of freebies given out like confetti in Coventry  and Warwickshire pubs, clubs, and businesses each week).
Bath's ground is 15,000 and even get good crowds for Bath Uni and Bath "A" games.
Wasps average for last season was around 14,000, the lowest they got was 10,300 and their highest 31,000.
Quins is normally full likewise Saracens. Leicester even in their current form get around 20,000.
League 2s top attendance was Bradford with 14,000. The rest were about 4-7,000.
I'd say the Prem would have crowds similar to that of lower end Championship and League One football, with wages similar to that also.
As for level 2, 1,600 would put them about equal to the average in  level 5 english football. A league with about 70% pro and 30% semi-pro teams. Probably an equal representation of the champ teams.
Wasps' highest notified attendance was under 25k (vs Quins), and the lowest around 9.5k last season. Note that these are what they quote, and include all season tickets and all those handed out as freebies - and many of the latter are ritually burned by Sky Blues fans.
I see photos of the inside of the ground after most games (and they circulate on local message boards quite often). Trust me, gauging the paltry number of occupied seats against empty blue ones, there's very rarely anything like14k there (or even the 13-odd k they actually quote for the 19/20 season average).
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Points: 1019 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopping Mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 15:26
And just think how many more clubs up and down the land, up and down the levels would have been able to offer these vitally important Community services if the finances weren’t so skewed to a small number of clubs?

I assume both clubs won’t be culling these services when the subsidy ends to protect their semi pro budgets and hence do want a real community game with controlled wage inflation? I’d direct you to last weeks rugby paper where Hoppers DoR made the suggestion of a £100k salary cap at all levels so monies could be employed for such schemes etc.
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Points: 11161 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 16:31
I assume that you were not expecting the cartel to adopt a £100k salary cap.
So this sort of implies ringfencing - a club could not gobetween  £100k to £4m in one summer.
If it is a hard cap, I do not believe you could bring iit in for the Championship in one season - I think you need t give time for players who are currently on higgher slaries to find other employment.

And asever - what stops sinecure jobs and boot monet.
Does money from running external coaching courses countwithin the cap

The idea is admirable, but the devil is always in the detail.
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Points: 1019 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Hopping Mad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 16:55
I agree it’s admiral and I think the view he expresses around this being a starting point for discussion is correct to get the clubs thinking this way.

The writing appears on the wall re contracts for beyond this current season. Be interesting to know how many new deals are for beyond 20:21. 

The plan being rolled out from the Championship clubs from what I hear implies it’s a move to semi pro across the board from 21.22 onwards. At what level any cap would be will tell everyone if this really is a move towards a community model or is just an extension of the over paying already prevalent in the National Leagues.

If it is the latter, could the real community game finally bear its teeth and ask to be ring fenced from these plans? 
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Points: 7390 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 19:58
I'm sad to witness the sourness between some supporters of rugby clubs who are only a level or two apart in the current structure - some having moved up a level or two while others have gone in the opposite direction.

I wonder how many Nat League stalwarts have spent some time getting a feel for the Championship, and vice-versa, thereby developing a feel/respect for what parliamentarians call 'the other place'? It's a shame some people can't/won't appreciate different rugby contexts, rather than always having to bang on about how great their set-up is and how much they despise those at a different level...


Edited by islander - 22 Jul 2020 at 21:24
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Points: 1395 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JonDee Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Jul 2020 at 20:48
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

I'm sad to witness the sourness between some supporters of rugby clubs who are only a level or two apart in the current structure - some having moved up a level or two while others have gone in the wrong direction.

I wonder how many Nat League stalwarts have spent some time getting a feel for the Championship, and vice-versa? It's a shame some people can't/won't appreciate different rugby contexts, rather than always having to bang on about how great their set-up is and how much they despise those at a different level...<div id="ypm-extension" ="ypm-extension">


Sadly I have to agree with you, have many friends from level 9 upwards but there are some people who refuse to accept anything but their own perception of life
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Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:



Rugby, although not as big as Football, has a large following in England. I'm sure they would get reasonable viewing figures for 1 live match a week.

Yes, Saracens are only likely to be in the Championship for 1 season - but what better time to sort out a TV deal on terrestrial TV.


No International Rugby has a large following; numbers elsewhere are chicken feed, whether it be attendances (unless it is a contrived club fixture at Wembley, Twickenham etc) or TV viewing. 

The fourth tier of English football is about where most Rugby Premiership attendances are at. 

http://rd.premiershiprugby.com/stats/attendance.php (strangely not given as averages.)


Premiership rugby attendances are a lot higher than Football League 2 (the 4th level)

Averaged out and excluding the 'one-off special games - tickets for a £10 etc' they are not. Saracens and Bath's  ground capacity are 10,000 and are rarely full. 


Wasps have 20000-odd seats going spare too (even with the massive amount of freebies given out like confetti in Coventry  and Warwickshire pubs, clubs, and businesses each week).
Bath's ground is 15,000 and even get good crowds for Bath Uni and Bath "A" games.
Wasps average for last season was around 14,000, the lowest they got was 10,300 and their highest 31,000.
Quins is normally full likewise Saracens. Leicester even in their current form get around 20,000.
League 2s top attendance was Bradford with 14,000. The rest were about 4-7,000.
I'd say the Prem would have crowds similar to that of lower end Championship and League One football, with wages similar to that also.
As for level 2, 1,600 would put them about equal to the average in  level 5 english football. A league with about 70% pro and 30% semi-pro teams. Probably an equal representation of the champ teams.

Quins and Saracens are normally full? I don't think so. This season Quins have averaged 12,200 at The Stoop (capacity 14,800) and Saracens 7,300 at The Cheating Arena (capacity 10,000).

In addition Plymouth Argyle averaged 10,300 in League 2 and in level 5 of English football (the top division of the National League) fourteen of twenty-four teams averaged over 1,720.

I don't think your figures stack up.
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Points: 4435 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Raider999 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2020 at 19:25
Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Originally posted by dropout22 dropout22 wrote:

Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:

Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by Raider999 Raider999 wrote:



Rugby, although not as big as Football, has a large following in England. I'm sure they would get reasonable viewing figures for 1 live match a week.

Yes, Saracens are only likely to be in the Championship for 1 season - but what better time to sort out a TV deal on terrestrial TV.


No International Rugby has a large following; numbers elsewhere are chicken feed, whether it be attendances (unless it is a contrived club fixture at Wembley, Twickenham etc) or TV viewing. 

The fourth tier of English football is about where most Rugby Premiership attendances are at. 

http://rd.premiershiprugby.com/stats/attendance.php (strangely not given as averages.)


Premiership rugby attendances are a lot higher than Football League 2 (the 4th level)


Averaged out and excluding the 'one-off special games - tickets for a £10 etc' they are not. Saracens and Bath's  ground capacity are 10,000 and are rarely full. 



Wasps have 20000-odd seats going spare too (even with the massive amount of freebies given out like confetti in Coventry  and Warwickshire pubs, clubs, and businesses each week).


Bath's ground is 15,000 and even get good crowds for Bath Uni and Bath "A" games.
Wasps average for last season was around 14,000, the lowest they got was 10,300 and their highest 31,000.
Quins is normally full likewise Saracens. Leicester even in their current form get around 20,000.
League 2s top attendance was Bradford with 14,000. The rest were about 4-7,000.
I'd say the Prem would have crowds similar to that of lower end Championship and League One football, with wages similar to that also.
As for level 2, 1,600 would put them about equal to the average in  level 5 english football. A league with about 70% pro and 30% semi-pro teams. Probably an equal representation of the champ teams.


Quins and Saracens are normally full? I don't think so. This season Quins have averaged 12,200 at The Stoop (capacity 14,800) and Saracens 7,300 at The Cheating Arena (capacity 10,000).

In addition Plymouth Argyle averaged 10,300 in League 2 and in level 5 of English football (the top division of the National League) fourteen of twenty-four teams averaged over 1,720.

I don't think your figures stack up.


Average League 2 attendance was 4,650 which was considerably skewed by the top 2

Bradford City. 14255
Plymouth Arg. 10338

Edited by Raider999 - 24 Jul 2020 at 19:32
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Points: 11161 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24 Jul 2020 at 22:12
Only Bedford, Coventry and Newcastle have higher average attendance than Macclesfield - the worst attended League 2 club. And soccer fans go to 23 home games.
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