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Playing in the Championship Clubs hands?
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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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    Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 09:38
With news that Bristol are to play a Premiership game in Cardiff next season and with the already established Premiership club games played at Twickenham and Tottenham's stadium doesn't this just play into the hands of the Championship Clubs arguments about minimum ground capacities?

Why bother having to increase your own ground capacity when you can move any game you think is going to more popular to a bigger stadium?

I do wander if this inconsistency was highlighted in the discussion between the RFU, PRL and Championship clubs? 
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Paul10 View Drop Down
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Points: 738 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 09:56
I get your point about inconsistencies but think this is more to do with maximum capacity.
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Richard Lowther View Drop Down
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Points: 6592 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 10:16
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

I get your point about inconsistencies but think this is more to do with maximum capacity.

Yes it is to with maximum capacities and that is exactly my point. If a Premiership club thinks their maximum capacity is going to be exceeded they can take the game to a bigger stadium as a one off, yet there appears to be no option for Championship clubs to do the same, they are being forced to increase their capacities, yet no one is saying to Bristol, Quins, Saracens etc, if you think your existing capacity is too small, increase it.
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Paul10 View Drop Down
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Points: 738 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 10:23
Yes. I suppose if Prem teams think it's easy to increase capacity...

Rugby has got itself in a proper mess here.
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Points: 4242 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 15:23
It's worth noting that the average gates of Quins and Saracens, taking out the games played at big stadia, are less than their current maximum capacity. Expanding their grounds to seat 50,000 would not result in much larger gates.

What worries me is that Community Clubs seeking to increase playing numbers seem to be in direct competition with the Premiership Clubs who are targeting the same audience - males aged 18-30. There are not enough of them to play and also watch matches.
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With an average attendance of 15358, Bristol hardly need to move as they cannot sell out their current ground they share with the footy.
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Points: 6592 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 15:39
Originally posted by Halliford Halliford wrote:

It's worth noting that the average gates of Quins and Saracens, taking out the games played at big stadia, are less than their current maximum capacity. Expanding their grounds to seat 50,000 would not result in much larger gates.


That's exactly the point. Why would any team increase their capacity to a level which they could not fill, except on an occasional one off basis. Yet the Championship Clubs are being forced to upsize without any guarantee that their gates would grow. 
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Points: 3791 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 15:41
Me thinks you are missing a huge point here Richard, the Cartel makes it up as they go along.
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Points: 6416 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 15:55
Cartel?
As much a cabal as that.
Conspiracy, intrigue, machination, and plot - kinda sums them up.
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Points: 11412 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17 Jul 2024 at 17:14
Be careful, it was decided in the London Welsh case that the Premiership was not operating as a cartel.
We certainly would not want to accuse the premiership of acting illegally.
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Premiership clubs move games to bigger grounds so they can package them as special events usually  wrapping them up with all sorts of other entertainment to appeal as much to non-rugby fans as to their own supporters. I really see very little to link this to the debate regarding minimum capacity for Championship clubs. Much stronger arguments as far as I am concerned. This one smacks of desperation. 
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Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Premiership clubs move games to bigger grounds so they can package them as special events usually  wrapping them up with all sorts of other entertainment to appeal as much to non-rugby fans as to their own supporters. I really see very little to link this to the debate regarding minimum capacity for Championship clubs. Much stronger arguments as far as I am concerned. This one smacks of desperation. 

Why can't they do all this in their own stadiums, which are not are full capacity? Ashton Gate is probably at 60% capacity.  

We know from past games at Wembley, Twickenham, Tottenham, that clubs are not turning these one off "special events" crowds into regular attendees at their own stadiums. All they seem to do is provide a false picture of a clubs average crowd, which is then used to dictate the minimum capacities for the Championship clubs. 
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Seems like a very valid point to me. Why are champ clubs asked to have a minimum stadium capacity of 5000 when they never have a need of that capacity? Yet if prem clubs don't have a stadium capable of hosting expected ticket sales they can debunk to a different location.

I guess it doesn't really matter. It's all.just arbitrary.


Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Premiership clubs move games to bigger grounds so they can package them as special events usually  wrapping them up with all sorts of other entertainment to appeal as much to non-rugby fans as to their own supporters. I really see very little to link this to the debate regarding minimum capacity for Championship clubs. Much stronger arguments as far as I am concerned. This one smacks of desperation. 
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

Be careful, it was decided in the London Welsh case that the Premiership was not operating as a cartel.
We certainly would not want to accuse the premiership of acting illegally.

Unfairly and unreasonably yes, but certainly not illegally.
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Originally posted by Richard Lowther Richard Lowther wrote:

Originally posted by WEvans WEvans wrote:

Premiership clubs move games to bigger grounds so they can package them as special events usually  wrapping them up with all sorts of other entertainment to appeal as much to non-rugby fans as to their own supporters. I really see very little to link this to the debate regarding minimum capacity for Championship clubs. Much stronger arguments as far as I am concerned. This one smacks of desperation. 

Why can't they do all this in their own stadiums, which are not are full capacity? Ashton Gate is probably at 60% capacity.  

We know from past games at Wembley, Twickenham, Tottenham, that clubs are not turning these one off "special events" crowds into regular attendees at their own stadiums. All they seem to do is provide a false picture of a clubs average crowd, which is then used to dictate the minimum capacities for the Championship clubs. 



Presumably they do this as they think having a "separate event" in a different stadium helps with the marketing and ultimately to sell more tickets. Why would they pay the hiring costs otherwise?

And whilst I agree these events do little to encourage more regular supporters but are you seriously suggesting that "all they seem to do is to boost average crowds"? Don't you not think the main purpose might just be to boost their finances? I know Premiership club owners aren't particularly financially astute but I would think the main reason they spend thousands to move a game is to do a little more than just boost their average attendance figures in order to dictate minimum capacities!
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