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What I don't understand... |
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Richard Lowther 
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Moderator Joined: 19 May 2007 Location: England Status: Offline Points: 6605 |
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 Topic: What I don't understand...Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 13:01 |
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Both Worcester and Wasps have amateur clubs, both historically tied to the professional clubs which are now insolvent.
However from many comments I have read on both clubs forums there seems to be little interest in either from the supporters of either doomed club. Why is this? Is it because the supporters are only attracted to top level rugby rather than any rugby at any level? Have they been spoilt? |
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rugbychris
British and Irish Lion 
Joined: 02 May 2019 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 163 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 13:15 |
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What I don't understand is why they aren't going to be at the bottom of the league pyramid. I thought if you fail to fulfil 3 fixtures in a season you are booted out to the merit leagues and then need to reapply for league membership.
Why are these failed businesses being propped up?
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Richard Lowther
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 13:22 |
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I am not sure that the regulations are that clear cut across the whole pyramid which is why. London Scottish and Richmond were 'new clubs' after the 'merger' with London Irish and that is probably why they started (again) from the bottom. Mark WJ will no doubt correct me if I am wrong but the ashes of the 'professional' London Welsh side joined back up with their amateur arm and their resulting league position. Orrell did something similar with the Orrell amatuers from memory. These options could be available if anything emerges from the car wrecks at Sixways and Wasps. Other than that I am struggling to think of any 'existing' team which started again from the very bottom - but there are probably examples. < Edit after thinking > Halifax voluntarily dropped to the bottom after the money run out and players left as they didn't have the squad to cope at at a higher level.
Edited by Richard Lowther - 18 Oct 2022 at 13:30 |
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Camquin
World Cup Winner
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11453 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 13:33 |
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Because of the contracts that were agreed several years ago by various directors, who seemed to move seamlessly between the two boards. If I were on the RFU board, I would be asking my lawyers about conflict of interest and trying to find a way out. Also, it has always been the case that the RFU can expel a club, but does not have to. See CS Stags 1863. The regulations require a club in administration to be relegated, unless there is force majeure - and the administrators will try to appeal on those grounds, but in both cases should fail as there were long histories of losses. However, should the administrator find that they cannot be rescued, and they are liquidated, different rules apply. The number of posts I have seen saying, we cannot let Wasps/Worcester name disappear - I suspect many people simply do not know about Wasps FC or Worcester RFC. Wasps RFC is not a 150-year-old club, it is about 20 years old and was never actually a club. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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Thatbloke
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 13:49 |
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Birmingham/Solihull (who were Level 4 at the time) had a season playing in a Merit League before rejoining the pyramid at the bottom after their benefactor withdrew 3 or 4 years ago
Slightly further back Rugby Lions did the same - won promotion from Level 5 but backer pulled out (was he ever in as it has since been revealed that Neil Back funded the club from his own pocket on a "promise" of funds from said "backer") Weren't able to fulfill fixtures at Level 4 the following season and went bust - started at the bottom again and slowly working their way back up the pyramid I'm sure there are several others if we think hard enough!! Edited by Thatbloke - 18 Oct 2022 at 13:49 |
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Neasham
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Joined: 09 May 2014 Location: County Durham Status: Offline Points: 464 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 13:57 |
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My grandson played at West Hartlepool a few weeks ago in a junior game. What a set up they have now. Fabulous new clubhouse with club bar and revenue generating function rooms, superb dressing rooms and gym and since I was last there floodlit artificial pitch for training and five a side footy.
I asked if they were still playing players and was laughed out of court. Point is there is life after professionalism - standard of rugby isn’t the same but so what. The amateur side of Wasps and Worcester should now come to the fore.
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Mark W-J
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Joined: 22 May 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3688 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 13:57 |
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No, you're right. It gets complicated because for the purposes of league rugby, London Welsh Amateurs were a separate club, but to the supporters they were as much a part of the London Welsh 'family' as the Occies, Women and M&J. There's also the debate as to which is the 'original' club - did the pro team break away (as I believe happened with Wasps), or was the 'community' club (created in about 2008 as a CASC) the 'new' entity, even though they were the ones who held the lease to ODP and owned all of the memorabilia in the clubhouse? When the first team went into administration just before Christmas 2016, a crowd of about 150 turned up for the Amateurs' next home game, and when the professional arm was liquidated they effectively became the club's first team overnight. Of course, it helped that they still played at Old Deer Park, whereas in Wasps' case the two clubs are about 100 miles apart, but in Worcester's case there's no reason why supporters shouldn't support the new Worcester RFC. Having said that, as Richard suggests in his post, way too many followers (note: not supporters) of the Premiership just aren't interested in the game outside of the top flight.
Edited by Mark W-J - 18 Oct 2022 at 14:25 |
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Halliford
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 14:08 |
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The Clubs that went to the bottom of the pyramid predated the PGA with PRL. That set the Regulations for the current circumstances in which Clubs placed into Administration are relegated. That assumes that someone acquires the assets out of the Administration. Worcester have a ground and infrastructure around it; Wasps don't have any assets other than their Training Ground and even that may have been sold already. In another thread a new Club called Worcester Sting was created merging the two together; that is a dispassionate business-related sensible move. Therefore it won't happen!
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Mark W-J
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Joined: 22 May 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3688 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 14:24 |
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Haywards Heath (L6) and Old Elthamians (L3) both pulled out at the start of last season - the former on safety grounds as they didn't have enough front row players registered, the latter due to financial mismanagement. They're now playing in Counties 2 Sussex (L8) and Counties 3 Kent (L9) respectively.
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Camquin
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 15:08 |
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Old Elthamians had the same sponsor as England 7s. As I understand it, the gentleman who owned the sponsoring company was doing it for the love of rugby, but he died. The executors could not justify the sponsorship in business terms and as they had to act in the interests of the beneficiaries, the money just stopped. However, the committee believed they could find another backer. There may even have been prospects, but they disappeared lie Scotch mist when it came time to actually deposit some money. But they told the NCA they could play until it was too late to replace them. There needs to be a cut-off date, early enough to promote a replacement club, by which point a financial pack needs to be submitted and checked. It would have caught, Worcester, Wasps and Old Elthamians.
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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OldNick
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 15:55 |
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This, of course assumes that the management's of the Premiership club's acted in good faith in their dealings with the RFU.
Two weeks ago one was still claiming it had a source of funding which no one seems to have identified.
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Mark W-J
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Joined: 22 May 2007 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 3688 |
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 15:55 |
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When we got caught out by out (first) Walter Mitty investor, he forwarded a forged email from HSBC, confirming that he had £3m in escrow to cover the costs of running the club for the next two years, to the RFU. I'm thinking that future owners should be asked to lodge a bond - let's say £2m - which the RFU will hold in a ring-fenced account. If the club gets into financial difficulties, they can draw down on that funding, but doing so will result in penalties eg 1 point deducted for the first £250k, another point for £250,001 - £500k etc. And once they have used up £1m it triggers some kind of warning whereby they have to seek additional external funding or be forced into some kind of special measures.
OK, you can tell I haven't thought it all through properly, but there has to be a way of making sure that these club owners like Goldring and Whittingham actually have the funds in place and aren't coming in purely to strip the assets.
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Richard Lowther
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Posted: 18 Oct 2022 at 17:34 |
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It would be interesting to compare to the French financial structure. That seems to work for them. You would have to ensure that it is 'new' money and not 'recycling' existing monies.
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WEvans
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 16:25 |
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In August it was reported that Wasps training ground was entirely owned by Christopher Holland a director of the club. Not sure of Mr Holland's status at the moment but it appears the training ground is not a a Wasps asset.
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Kimbo
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Posted: 19 Oct 2022 at 16:53 |
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Correct. Ownership transferred. Fortunate timing eh?
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WEvans
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Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 12:43 |
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I'm sure it was entirely coincidental!
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quercynomad
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Joined: 19 Oct 2014 Location: London Status: Offline Points: 50 |
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Posted: 20 Oct 2022 at 23:42 |
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I'm not sure that is quite right - the gentleman concerned, prior to his death in December 2019, had not been forthcoming with the funds for either OEs or England 7s - OEs players had been unpaid for some months (at least 6) and the RFU had written off payment for the sponsorship deal that his company, Secure Trading, had put in place for England 7s. Many of the players at OEs were employed by Secure Trading, which in itself was in financial difficulty. Secure Trading went into liquidation in April 2019. The point is that it wasn't his untimely death that caused the issue.
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rugbychris wrote: