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Halliford 
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Joined: 17 Feb 2010 Location: United Kingdom Status: Offline Points: 4242 |
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 Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 08:37 |
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Without the players we don’t have a product so their view matters. When I played I wanted my rugby to fit the res5 of my life, the same is true now. I’m now a Treasurer so, yes, we will miss some income but it might give us 2extra weeks of commercial income instead. It’s not crucial to our sustainability.
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marigold
World Cup Winner
Joined: 09 Apr 2019 Location: Eltham Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 08:37 |
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FHLH I would be really keen to know of any Level 3 or 4 club that makes a £10,000 profit each home game. I agree club sustainability is paramount. Therefore instead of paying players an annual wage or monthly retainer at these levels it would make much more sense for clubs to pay a match fee for those selected in the 1st XV for league matches. The loss of 2 home games would be offset by reduction in wage bill for players, medical staff, stewards and bar staff. Even larger offset is 2 less away games with as well as not having to pay players and medical staff there is no expensive transport to pay for. In answer to your question the most important opinion is that of the players. They are the present and future of any club. In my experience the D of R has a better understanding of their views than the club treasurer.
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FHLH
World Cup Winner
Cambridge Joined: 19 Apr 2009 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 5403 |
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Posted: 28 Jun 2020 at 09:41 |
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And without a club the players have no base. You're lucky to get replacement commercial income at a level close to a match. I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't be easier (being a members club), to sell our 25 acres prime building land and revertvto The Joys of Level 7.
I wrote "up to" and I've PM the calculations which come to c £9,000 but as the gate and bar are pure guesses I rounded up! Yes, there will be Home and Away cost savings and I agree the future model has to be on a per match basis but keeping better players may be tricky without a retainer and associated contract to fend off deep pockets. As a former Treasurer it's my perception that facilitating player demands isn't as easy as it seems without a sugar daddy which we have all agreed is not a good business model. Try your own estimates for your club, look at the accounts and work it out. What we really need are good local derbies which, in my experience, can bring in over 2,000 through the gate (and that was at Level 4) Cambridge v Shelford, but we have history. Edited by FHLH - 28 Jun 2020 at 09:53 |
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"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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hills17
British and Irish Lion 
Joined: 27 Jun 2007 Location: South West Status: Offline Points: 226 |
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Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 09:36 |
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A break 5 weeks into the season for National League? One before Christmas works. Should be looking to regionalise Nat 1? Travelling crazy. Nearest game for last 5 years at least 3 hours away.
Edited by hills17 - 29 Jun 2020 at 09:41 |
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Raider999
World Cup Winner
Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Location: Crawley Status: Offline Points: 4477 |
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Posted: 29 Jun 2020 at 12:10 |
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From your travel time for you nearest game I would suggest you support Plymouth or DMP - You don't give any indication how you want N1 reorganised, but I would suggest this is not possible in either region without lowering the standard of the rugby your club will be playing. |
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RAID ON
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Novocastrian
First XV squad 
Joined: 19 May 2015 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 15:22 |
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Seemingly pretty abundant that 2nd XVs will be admitted into the leagues.
I’m sure the National League clubs are all for it and the clubs at L6-7 and below are against it. How many clubs on this forum will be submitting applications for their 2nd XV to join the leagues out of interest?
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Camp Freddie
British and Irish Lion
Joined: 04 Jul 2018 Location: Lancs Status: Offline Points: 153 |
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Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 16:09 |
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Novos, my club have said that if they allow 2nd XVs in the leagues they will leave and join the breakaway setup. |
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The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
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Camquin
World Cup Winner
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11407 |
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Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 16:36 |
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CF I am sure you have a good reason why you do nto want 2nd XV teams in the league. But I am not sure I have grasped it. Would you be so kind and explain what the problem is with the suggestion. I thought we were trying to arrange the best possible opposition with the shortest possible travel for the most number of sides. |
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Sweeney Delenda Est
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PiffPaff
World Cup Winner
Joined: 30 Oct 2014 Location: Manchester Status: Offline Points: 1126 |
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Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 16:50 |
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CQ I'm sure CF will reply, however I would think the very thought of playing Caldy 2s, Sedgley Park 2s and Fylde 2s whilst not packed to gills with semi-pro's but benefiting from a substantially higher fitness and abilities in its playing personnel will not be a fixture looked forward to by your average Level 7 and below side. At the moment there is nothing below Level 7 in the RFU North West structure (other than the Cumbria League) and thus I would surmise that a "log-jam" of massive proportions will ensue if these 2nd XVs can't go any higher than Level 7. I guess you could reward the lowest placed 1st XV a promotion spot to Level 6 but something just looks wrong with promoting a team that could finish 5th or 6th. The likelihood would be history repeating itself year on year. Also there is a very good League Comp for lower XVs in the North West called the Halbro Leagues the RFU would temporarily "fix" their League to the detriment of one very successful one.
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SmilingD
First XV squad
Joined: 10 Aug 2018 Location: Saffron Walden Status: Offline Points: 32 |
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Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 17:06 |
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Camquin - not dead set against it but here in Eastern Counties, as you probably know, we already allow 2nd XVs etc in our lower leagues and it is not without problems.
- with the player registration limit set to 100 players and clubs having 3 or more teams in the league set up you rapidly reach the point when a club doesn't have enough registered players to manage their selection; - there is no distinction in regs as they stand between a pro/semipro registered player and a third team social rugby utility back - so clubs can easily load a team to create an unfair contest - there are certainly occasions when a club deems a 2nd or 3rd XV relegation/promotion clash a higher priority than a mid-table 1st XV game - some very odd sets of results ensure; - we had an example last season of a club pushing for promotion at 1st XV level simply withdrawing their 2nd XV from the league in March in order to manage their playing squad - undermining the integrity of the lower league. And that is without considering the impact on small clubs with only one XV of the recruitment efforts of larger clubs around who seem to be quite happy to build the depth of their squad without regard to the restricted playing opportunities that will result from having more players than they need. All of these things can be fixed with appropriate regulation and enforcement and with clubs showing a bit of self-restraint in the interests of the game as a whole but I am not holding my breath.
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Camquin
World Cup Winner
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11407 |
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Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 18:07 |
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The 100 player limit would need to go. I belive Richmond runs at least six men's senior sides. So they would need more than 100 players registered as 90 would be on the pitch, with a few subs and the inevitable injuries. I think Cambridge II is about level 5 or 6. Richmond II is possibly a little stronger. I would expect Caldy's to be about the same standard and Fylde and Sedgely Park's to bit a little weaker. My personal feeling is that all sides should be playing at the level they belong - no side should fear any of its opponents, though obviously some will be stonger than others. Which suggests if 2nd XVs are in the pyramid they cannot be capped, or they would be too strong for their opponents. However, I can understand tha tthe gate taking clubs want to be playing other 1st teams, as it would be harder to find sponsers etc for matches against 2nd teams. I am not sure how far down the pyramid clubs take a gate. And with the tendancy for clubs to say, "We donn't pay players but our rivals are all on full time contracts" it is very hardto get a real picture of club finances. Of course the RFu have the accurate club accounts and the player contracts, so should know this. oh look a flying pig. |
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Raider999
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Joined: 18 Jan 2013 Location: Crawley Status: Offline Points: 4477 |
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Posted: 03 Aug 2020 at 22:46 |
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A couple of points, Richmond 2s are strong, Richmond 3s are not much weaker. I don't understand why a club would struggle to find match sponsors against Richmond 2s rather than Little Wallop 1st XV. Personally I would have thought if having 2nd teams in the pyramid means you can limit travel whilst maintaining overall standards then there should be no problem. Of course it may be that some 1st teams are worried they might get beaten by a number of 2nd teams. Edited by Raider999 - 03 Aug 2020 at 22:49 |
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Camquin
World Cup Winner
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11407 |
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Posted: 04 Aug 2020 at 00:46 |
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I am not part of the commercial side, but I do watch as much of the second team game as I can before the first team kick's off and they do not get a lot of travelling support, even from Richmond.
I would not want another club to suffer loss of revenue if their first team played our seconds. Down in Eastern Counties 1, the players are paying match fees and beer kitty, so it does not matter. I used to play a lot of hockey both here and in the Netherlands, and nobody took a gate, so it did not matter if you had a 1st XI a 3rd and a 6th in the same league, indeed clubs had two teams in the same league, as Richmond does in the Shield. The hardest fought match was the one internal to your club. As a 3rd XI player we wanted to beat the 2nds much and they were not going to lose to us, ad nobody had a long drive home so we could stay in the bar afterwards. |
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Camp Freddie
British and Irish Lion
Joined: 04 Jul 2018 Location: Lancs Status: Offline Points: 153 |
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Posted: 04 Aug 2020 at 08:21 |
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Good Morning CQ, I better chip in here as I threw the handgrenade. Pretty much all my thoughts were covered in Piffpaffs explaination. Some 1st XV teams at our lowest level here at 7 are not really up to playing that level and for them to be coming up against what could be good semi pro players could be off putting to say it mildly. If a limit of level 7 is set then we would just be moving the Premiership division of the NOWIRUL Leagues to the RFU League pyramid, how does this benefit anyone, is it just to bolster the RFU numbers in the pyramid ? I was on the consultation call for the North where 70% of the participants voted against 2nd XVs in the RFU Leagues. Is there not a case for regional rules at lower levels, the South can have 2nds and the North don't have to ? Sometimes one size doesn't fit all.
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The road of excess leads to the palace of wisdom.
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workerbee
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Joined: 20 May 2009 Location: Wirral Status: Offline Points: 917 |
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Posted: 04 Aug 2020 at 09:38 |
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Where 2nd XV fit into a league structure is a difficult decision to make. The current structure in the North West is working well for most teams but has been problematic for a few of the elite. The premier league has switched from 14 teams to 9 and back to accommodate those sides who do not feel that they can compete with the top 6 sides in the league. Out of 45 games Caldy played over the last two seasons 14 were wins over 50 points and a couple over 90. Teams would travel with 11 or 12 players (the rules in the league is you can only use one more player that the opposition) however even then Caldy have given the opposition players or even mixed and matched the teams to get a good game. The problem is it is too far and expensive for 2nd XV to travel to Yorkshire or the midlands to get competitive matches. The alternative is to let them find their level in the RFU leagues. Remember before Leagues Top sides in the area usually played local 1st XV with their 2nd XV. There is no right way but we have to combine the advantages of local competition with competitiveness.
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Camquin
World Cup Winner
Joined: 01 Jun 2007 Location: Cambridge Status: Offline Points: 11407 |
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Posted: 04 Aug 2020 at 09:44 |
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Givne that the excuse for having this discussion is the complaints by the teams in Lancashire who did nto want to travel to Cumbriato lose matches - if we can solve that locally then there is no reason to change the structure anywhere else. However, that has given the RFU an excuse to try to save money by paying out less travel support and cutting the number of matches played, so having to pay fewer referees expensive. Though actually I have not seen a set of suggestions from the RFu at any point in this cycle rthat actaually looked like it would save money - as they keep reintroducing a National Cup andtherefore adding travel costs and games. Though having said that, the Championship is broken and does need to be fixed. Either it needs to become professional, which takes a lot of money the RFU cannot provide and no sponsor has come forward to offer. Or it needs to go semi-pro in which case the Premiership needs to be expanded and ring fenced as the gap is going to be too big. It also needs to expand to ensure the clubs get sufficient meaningful home games to generate revenue. if you put 14 teams i the premiership and 16 in the Championship then I am not sure you would find another 16 teams who want to be in a national league. So you will need to redraw the lower leagues. And if you do that, I would want to see the league structure in the North West arranged so that the Cumbrian clubs get meaningful fixtures and the Lancashire clubs are happy to return to the main competition. But that is going to take a lot of meetings with beer and sandwiches, if you are old enough to remember Harold Wilson. And then after a suitable period of rest, I would send the negotiaters to solve the crisis in the Middle East. It sounds to me that there is no fundamental objection to amateur clubs 2nd XVs in the leagues - if the lissues rround registration are fixed. However, it is becoming clear to me that there may be a need to retain a separate merit league for the semi-pro second teams, keep the Shield in London & the South East, keep NOWIRUL but perhaps include some Yorkshire sides, and keep have a similar structure in the South West and Midlands - assuming we keep the current Divisions. |
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marigold
World Cup Winner
Joined: 09 Apr 2019 Location: Eltham Status: Offline Points: 430 |
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Posted: 04 Aug 2020 at 11:36 |
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The drawback of non RFU leagues for 2nd XV's has been that if/when teams decide not to put out a side that week there are no consequences for the team that withdraws. For the last 2 seasons Chinnor insisted they wanted a place in the 2nd XV league and then cancelled the vast majority of the fixtures-often on a Friday, not because of lack of players but because their D of R would not allow their non playing first team players that weekend play in the 2's. Also the Shield/Raging Bull leagues were increased to 16 teams to accommodate distant teams which lead to even more cancellations. I assume if teams do not have a team for an RFU league match there will be consequences which will eventually demonstrate who does and who does not want to participate within those regulations. Those who do not will still have the option to use merit tables/local leagues. Given the financial circumstances of most clubs going forward i cannot see many, if any, paying players to play in their 2nd XV
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Novocastrian
First XV squad
Joined: 19 May 2015 Location: Newcastle Status: Offline Points: 38 |
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Posted: 04 Aug 2020 at 12:00 |
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I’ve been saying this for a long time. 1st XVs used to play 2nd XVs. However, of course this was before league rugby, and a meaningful competitive fixture didn’t have to be in a league setting! My view is that both lower level 1st XV clubs and higher level 2nd CV clubs must compromise on this. If you don’t want 2nd XVs in the league, they NEED to have competitive fixtures. In the North East, the 5 or 6 big 2nd XV clubs only get a competing fixture when they play each other - it can’t be fun playing the same team 3-4 times a season every year. My resolution? Leagues of 10 for L6 and below. 18 league fixtures a season. But you HAVE to be including strong 2nd XVs in your ‘Friendly’ fixtures that you arrange. They’ll be bloody competitive fixtures and neither side will want to lose. Who wants to lose to a 2nd XV? Nobody, no matter who it is. Additionally, this also means you can play your traditional ‘local’ fixtures and even chuck in the odd ‘touring’ game or whatever. Rugby wasn’t broken before the introduction of larger leagues. It sure as hell is now. The definition of madness? Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Let’s try something different and try and make it positive. The pigheadedness of many to refuse to accommodate either side and demanding leagues of 14 or even 16 (I’m talking about Regional leagues here) means that in the end we all lose and nobody will be happy. Get fixture secretaries to become fixture secretaries again and arrange some meaningful fixtures for their clubs. If we can do that properly, it should negate the issues of 2nd XVs clamouring to join the RFU leagues. |
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Halliford wrote: