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Are Ealing a sustainable club?

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Paul10 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03 Jan 2025 at 16:19
Good on 'em.

And long may it last.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 01:59
I like how some Ealing supporters get upset with a Blues supporter taking interest in the biggest and best rugby organisation around and highlighting how much Mike Gooley contributes on an annual basis into rugby. 

I think it is interesting for all Championship supporters seeing what their club is up against when facing Ealing. A lot of money and resources, bordering on Premiership level, so if your team gets close to, let alone winning on the pitch your team has done incredibly well. 

As I said Coventry’s turnover is around £2.5m in 2023 (probably higher with bigger crowds) and Bedford Blues is similar I believe. Doncaster Knights have a turnover of £3.8m (2023) of which £2m comes from S Lloyd (mostly) and D Mulder. The way Knights are setup you get to see a lot of detail.

The Stadium is owned by The Mike Gooley Trailfinders Charity, so it is unlikely to have the stadium costs in there.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 10:45
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

I like how some Ealing supporters get upset with a Blues supporter taking interest in the biggest and best rugby organisation around and highlighting how much Mike Gooley contributes on an annual basis into rugby. 

I think it is interesting for all Championship supporters seeing what their club is up against when facing Ealing. A lot of money and resources, bordering on Premiership level, so if your team gets close to, let alone winning on the pitch your team has done incredibly well. 

As I said Coventry’s turnover is around £2.5m in 2023 (probably higher with bigger crowds) and Bedford Blues is similar I believe. Doncaster Knights have a turnover of £3.8m (2023) of which £2m comes from S Lloyd (mostly) and D Mulder. The way Knights are setup you get to see a lot of detail.

The Stadium is owned by The Mike Gooley Trailfinders Charity, so it is unlikely to have the stadium costs in there.

Mike Gooley waits tentatively for the annual financial report from the aptly named 'The Blues ' before he buys his wife a Chritmas present . I am not sure she got any Christmas present December 24 after it was stated that Trailfinders were severley strapped for cash and declared insolvent. LOL
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JZSmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 11:15
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

I like how some Ealing supporters get upset with a Blues supporter taking interest in the biggest and best rugby organisation around and highlighting how much Mike Gooley contributes on an annual basis into rugby. 

I think it is interesting for all Championship supporters seeing what their club is up against when facing Ealing. A lot of money and resources, bordering on Premiership level, so if your team gets close to, let alone winning on the pitch your team has done incredibly well. 

As I said Coventry’s turnover is around £2.5m in 2023 (probably higher with bigger crowds) and Bedford Blues is similar I believe. Doncaster Knights have a turnover of £3.8m (2023) of which £2m comes from S Lloyd (mostly) and D Mulder. The way Knights are setup you get to see a lot of detail.

The Stadium is owned by The Mike Gooley Trailfinders Charity, so it is unlikely to have the stadium costs in there.

As an outsider I suspect what upsets some Ealing supporters is when another outsider's interest is in declaring their club insolvent!

Are you party to the financial capabilities and plans of the directors?

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 12:44
I have just said what was detailed in the accounts signed by the Directors and Auditor. I don’t understand why there is so much nervousness when Ealing is mentioned. Blues are negative £250k, Pirates looks like it is a big number at £7.4m in 2023. It all shows the amount of money some people put in and are happy to lose for our entertainment!

I have not declared their club insolvent. It’s all in the accounts so only commenting on what is filed. As liabilities are greater than assets by approx £26k (not much really when considering their turnover) at the balance sheet date, a going concern note was made.

The directors have made a statement that the shareholders are committed to provide on going support to allow the company to meet its liabilities as they fall due for a period of no less than 12 months from the date the accounts were signed.

Edited by The Blues - 04 Jan 2025 at 12:45
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 16:06
The same statement is probably made on every Premiership club accounts.

Bristol lost £5.5m last season. 


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 17:27
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

The same statement is probably made on every Premiership club accounts.

Bristol lost £5.5m last season. 


I know which is also what I said, as probably most clubs in the top 2 divisions are technically insolvent. Bath I think I saw are £14m on their 2023 accounts.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 18:18
Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

The same statement is probably made on every Premiership club accounts.

Bristol lost £5.5m last season. 



Same in every sport.

Red Bull F1 owed £125M to Red Bull drinks company at end Dec 23
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 19:43
The last accounts for Chinnor, to 29 April 2003, show net assets of £317K. The latest accounts are due to be filed in May
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 20:17
Yes but we don't count.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote No 7 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04 Jan 2025 at 23:27
No team counts in the Championship
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JZSmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05 Jan 2025 at 11:34
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

I have just said what was detailed in the accounts signed by the Directors and Auditor. I don’t understand why there is so much nervousness when Ealing is mentioned. Blues are negative £250k, Pirates looks like it is a big number at £7.4m in 2023. It all shows the amount of money some people put in and are happy to lose for our entertainment!

I have not declared their club insolvent. It’s all in the accounts so only commenting on what is filed. As liabilities are greater than assets by approx £26k (not much really when considering their turnover) at the balance sheet date, a going concern note was made.

The directors have made a statement that the shareholders are committed to provide on going support to allow the company to meet its liabilities as they fall due for a period of no less than 12 months from the date the accounts were signed.

Your initial post says "Ealing are now insolvent"

I even gave you a reference as to what insolvent means but you chose to ignore it and continue to claim you didn't say something which you quite clearly did.

But if you want to keep digging that hole for yourself feel free!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 hours 41 minutes ago at 23:17
Originally posted by JZSmith JZSmith wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

I have just said what was detailed in the accounts signed by the Directors and Auditor. I don’t understand why there is so much nervousness when Ealing is mentioned. Blues are negative £250k, Pirates looks like it is a big number at £7.4m in 2023. It all shows the amount of money some people put in and are happy to lose for our entertainment!

I have not declared their club insolvent. It’s all in the accounts so only commenting on what is filed. As liabilities are greater than assets by approx £26k (not much really when considering their turnover) at the balance sheet date, a going concern note was made.

The directors have made a statement that the shareholders are committed to provide on going support to allow the company to meet its liabilities as they fall due for a period of no less than 12 months from the date the accounts were signed.

Your initial post says "Ealing are now insolvent"

I even gave you a reference as to what insolvent means but you chose to ignore it and continue to claim you didn't say something which you quite clearly did.

But if you want to keep digging that hole for yourself feel free!

Please read the red from your link and then look at the accounts and tell me how the liabilities are not greater than assets.

I will help you, net assets are £315,501 and net liabilities are £658,536 = net liabilities of £343,035.  This warrants a going concern note.

Overall the balance sheet is negative by £26,292.  Suggesting that if everything was converted to cash it would not have sufficient funds to pay its debts.  This means from the numbers it needs additional support, which the shareholders have given, as from the face of it, it can't pay its debts at the balance sheet date.

Not expecting an apology!

A company is insolvent when it can’t pay its debts. This could mean either:

  • it can’t pay bills when they become due
  • it has more liabilities than assets on its balance sheet


Edited by The Blues - 22 hours 18 minutes ago at 23:40
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 hours 34 minutes ago at 23:24
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

The same statement is probably made on every Premiership club accounts.

Bristol lost £5.5m last season. 



Same in every sport.

Red Bull F1 owed £125M to Red Bull drinks company at end Dec 23

If you want to see the big one look at LIV golf!  Accounts to 31 Dec 2022 turnover of $4.9m and a loss of $243.7m.

Companies House say the 31 Dec 2023 are overdue after what appears to be a 3 month filing extension.  This assumes Companies House has not been slow which is also a possibility. 



Edited by The Blues - 22 hours 31 minutes ago at 23:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 hours 22 minutes ago at 09:36
Brilliant.

Oil. The ultimate sugar daddy.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 42 minutes ago at 10:16
If you are burning through that much cash, the fines for late filing are trivial.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JZSmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 hours 59 minutes ago at 10:59
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Originally posted by JZSmith JZSmith wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

I have just said what was detailed in the accounts signed by the Directors and Auditor. I don’t understand why there is so much nervousness when Ealing is mentioned. Blues are negative £250k, Pirates looks like it is a big number at £7.4m in 2023. It all shows the amount of money some people put in and are happy to lose for our entertainment!

I have not declared their club insolvent. It’s all in the accounts so only commenting on what is filed. As liabilities are greater than assets by approx £26k (not much really when considering their turnover) at the balance sheet date, a going concern note was made.

The directors have made a statement that the shareholders are committed to provide on going support to allow the company to meet its liabilities as they fall due for a period of no less than 12 months from the date the accounts were signed.

Your initial post says "Ealing are now insolvent"

I even gave you a reference as to what insolvent means but you chose to ignore it and continue to claim you didn't say something which you quite clearly did.

But if you want to keep digging that hole for yourself feel free!

Please read the red from your link and then look at the accounts and tell me how the liabilities are not greater than assets.

I will help you, net assets are £315,501 and net liabilities are £658,536 = net liabilities of £343,035.  This warrants a going concern note.

Overall the balance sheet is negative by £26,292.  Suggesting that if everything was converted to cash it would not have sufficient funds to pay its debts.  This means from the numbers it needs additional support, which the shareholders have given, as from the face of it, it can't pay its debts at the balance sheet date.

Not expecting an apology!

A company is insolvent when it can’t pay its debts. This could mean either:

  • it can’t pay bills when they become due
  • it has more liabilities than assets on its balance sheet

Oh dear that hole is getting even bigger. How do you know the directors can't pay the bills? Neither of us know that and the balance sheet doesn't answer the question.

If you had said Ealing were balance sheet insolvent then you would have been correct but you didn't. And of course being balance sheet insolvent means nothing. You are only insolvent when you can't pay your bills.

Not expecting an apology!

(If you hurry you might be able to get a new shovel in the New Year sales. The one you are using must be almost worn out with all the digging you are doing!)


Edited by JZSmith - 10 hours 54 minutes ago at 11:04
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WILD BOAR 1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10 hours 45 minutes ago at 11:13
Does this mean they are unable to meet the criteria to apply for a place in the Premiership next season?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 48 minutes ago at 12:10
Originally posted by WILD BOAR 1 WILD BOAR 1 wrote:

Does this mean they are unable to meet the criteria to apply for a place in the Premiership next season?

Admittedly from 2016 but could be great if applied here:

"The announcement last Friday by the Direction Nationale d’Aide et de Contrôle de Gestion [DNACG], colloquially known as the ‘financial gendarme‘ of professional rugby in France, that the trio of venerable clubs were to be relegated as a punishment for financial mismanagement sent shockwaves through the French game. Between them Biarritz, Tarbes and Narbonne have won the French championship on eight occasions while Bourgoin were runners-up in 1997............

The French are sad but at the same time there’s little sympathy for the plight of the quartet of clubs. At the weekend La Depeche, the newspaper that serves Toulouse and the surrounding region, ran an article in which it asked the rhetorical question ‘should the DNACG be congratulated for its draconian punishment?’ Their answer: “Yes, even if it’s taken such a long time, because what’s at stake is the credibility of a professional [rugby] world that has sometimes appeared to be that in name only.”

Bourgoin have been flirting with financial disaster for a while, according to Monday’s edition of Midi Olympique. With a budget of just four million euros, Bourgoin have run up a deficit of €1m, despite the fact that they were relegated to Fédérale 1 in the summer of 2012 for similar financial ineptitude."

Google translation of two key paragraphs re DNACG:

Every professional club is required to set up a reserve fund, allowing it to present a net adjusted situation of an amount at least equal to 20% of its player payroll, excluding employer contributions, for the coming season (1) . It is notably thanks to this essential provision that the average level of adjusted equity of clubs has increased considerably since the beginning of the 2000s, both in TOP 14 Orange and in PRO D2.

Any professional club must limit the gross payroll (excluding employer contributions) of players under professional, multi-active or hopeful contracts to a maximum equivalent to 52% of the sum of the products provided for in its forecast income statements on the one hand, and of the closing of the financial year on the other hand. The gross payroll of players includes all remuneration, in cash or in kind, including any image contracts. The products cover both operating income, financial income and exceptional income. If a club does not generate sufficient operating income to "cover" its payroll, its shareholder may, for example, voluntarily or at the request of the DNACG, abandon a current account allowing it to fulfill this obligation.



Edited by FHLH - 9 hours 29 minutes ago at 12:29
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 36 minutes ago at 12:22
Translation 

The DNACG: composition, missions and operation
Published on 08/24/2010

Share :

What is DNACG?
In accordance with Article 132-2 of the Sports Code, as well as the specific provisions provided for this purpose by the statutes and general regulations of the FFR and the LNR and by the FFR/LNR agreement, the National Directorate of Assistance and Management Control is responsible for ensuring the control of the administrative, financial and legal management of clubs competing in professional championships on the one hand, and federal championships on the other.

Article L. 132-2 of the Sports Code: “Each federation with a professional league creates an organization ensuring the legal and financial control of the associations and companies mentioned in Article 11. This organization is in particular responsible for checking that the associations and companies they have formed meet the conditions set for taking part in competitions organized by the federation.”

The DNACG is an independent body with respect to the FFR and the LNR whose activity is structured around three entities:

The Professional Championship Control Commission, responsible for monitoring clubs participating in championships organized by the LNR (TOP 14 Orange and PRO D2).
The Federal Championship Control Commission, responsible for ensuring control of clubs participating in championships organized by the FFR (federal divisions).
The High Council, which, on the basis of the elements provided by these two commissions, is the only body authorized to impose sanctions against clubs.

Members of the DNACG
The members of the DNACG are appointed for their expertise and for their independence from the clubs controlled, several regulatory provisions providing the necessary guarantees on these two points.

The Higher Council of the DNACG

Fabrice FRICOU
Alain LAJUGIE
Max MARTINEU
Guy MORAUX
The Professional Championship Control Commission is made up of eight members appointed by the LNR or the FFR:

Coordinators

Dominique Debreyer
Jean-Christophe Rouge
Rapporteurs

Bernard AGRET
Jean-Luc BERBION
Alain BURETTE
Philippe DEPARIS
Gerard LANDA
Julien LEGENDRE
Philippe ORAIN
Jean-Guy SICARD
The secretariat of the DNACG (professional sector) is provided by its administrative manager, Mr. Marc LE NERRANT, who is part of the permanent staff of the National Rugby League.

The missions of the DNACG
The DNACG's main purpose is to promote economic fairness in the TOP 14 Orange and PRO D2 championships, in order to prevent the competition from being distorted by clubs incurring costs that are too high to justify the resources needed to finance them.

It is also about contributing to the economic and sporting sustainability of the clubs, which is all the more essential in a period of economic crisis, following, for rugby, a decade of strong growth.

To do this, the roles are clearly divided between the Professional Championship Control Commission and the DNACG Higher Council:


The first instructs the files through the collection of the necessary accounting and legal documents, club hearings and on-site visits. Six of its members, divided into pairs, are each more specifically responsible for five clubs from the two professional divisions. The Commission thus examines and assesses the situation of each club, issues a favorable or unfavorable opinion on the approval of players' contracts, and transmits to the High Council the files likely to justify the application of the sanctions provided for by the regulations. It can also issue supervisory measures concerning the recruitment of clubs and/or limitations on the payroll.

The High Council is competent to pronounce the said sanctions in the first instance, on the basis in particular of the file presented by one or more rapporteur(s) of the Control Commission and after hearing the club for contradictory exchange. It is also guarantor of the procedures defined by the Steering Committees of the FFR and the LNR.

Since the creation of the DNACG in 1999, rugby authorities have also wanted it to be able to provide assistance to clubs, symbolised by the "A" in its acronym. This approach, which was particularly necessary in a period of professionalisation of rugby, remains useful, particularly for clubs promoted from lower divisions. While it is in no way intended to replace the clubs' accounting and legal advice, or their auditors, the DNACG can thus provide support in its areas of expertise.

To carry out its missions, the Professional Championship Control Commission and/or the Higher Council meet physically ten to fifteen times per season for hearings or working meetings. Numerous telephone meetings are also organized in addition.
Finally, twenty to twenty-five visits to clubs each season allow for on-site inspections to be carried out, but also for discussions with the managers and legal, accounting and financial stakeholders (employees or advisors) of the clubs. Finally, the upstream work of the different pairs of controllers on the instruction of the files of the clubs they are responsible for is obviously essential.

Measures and sanctions
In order to carry out its missions, the DNACG may, depending on the seriousness of a club's financial situation or the offence it is accused of, impose a certain number of measures and/or sanctions, with or without a total or partial suspension:

Financial fines,

Blocking of LNR payments or total or partial withdrawal of participation in the French Championship blocking fund,

Limitation of the players' payroll to an amount set by the Control Commission,

Conditioning the conclusion of new contracts and/or player amendments (extension and/or increase in remuneration) on the production of additional documents and/or financial guarantees,

Prohibition on concluding contracts and/or amendments for players, including with players already under contract, or already licensed in the club in question,

Withdrawal of points,

Refusal of promotion to a higher division,

Relegation to a lower division (automatic at the end of the season for any club that has been subject to the opening of receivership proceedings),

Refusal to commit to the professional championship.
All of these measures and sanctions may be appealed before the Federal Financial Commission, which has jurisdiction in this matter.

Reserve fund and payroll cap:
Specific safeguards for professional rugby
In addition to the measures or sanctions that may be imposed on a particular club, all are subject to two additional regulatory obligations:

- Every professional club is required to set up a reserve fund, allowing it to present a net adjusted situation of an amount at least equal to 20% of its player payroll, excluding employer contributions, for the coming season (1) . It is notably thanks to this essential provision that the average level of adjusted equity of clubs has increased considerably since the beginning of the 2000s, both in TOP 14 Orange and in PRO D2.

Any professional club must limit the gross payroll (excluding employer contributions) of players under professional, multi-active or hopeful contracts to a maximum equivalent to 52% of the sum of the products provided for in its forecast income statements on the one hand, and of the closing of the financial year on the other hand. The gross payroll of players includes all remuneration, in cash or in kind, including any image contracts. The products cover both operating income, financial income and exceptional income. If a club does not generate sufficient operating income to "cover" its payroll, its shareholder may, for example, voluntarily or at the request of the DNACG, abandon a current account allowing it to fulfill this obligation.

(1) Transitional provisions, taking into account the context of the economic crisis, provide for the possibility for clubs to reduce the amount of the reserve fund by up to 10% of their payroll. However, this exemption is subject to restrictive conditions regarding the increase in the player payroll of the club concerned. Furthermore, contributions to blocked current accounts (quasi-equity) may also be taken into account on a transitional basis.

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