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Premiership II plans announced
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Jester10 View Drop Down
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Points: 1823 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Jester10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 16:09
Originally posted by titans.chris titans.chris wrote:

When we (Rotherham) nearly went bust there was no help from the RFU, had we gone bust we would have had to start at the bottom of the pyramid. We were extremely lucky that two new investors came in at the 11th hour and saved us. 

I actually played in the pre match friendly as an under 13 against Barnsley. Ulster who the titans were meant to be playing were warming up and no Rotherham team turned up as there was no money. The Ulster lads came and watched our game and went home. We were thinking we were going to be gonners like Wakefield and Orrell. 

As said above we were lucky. 

When London Welsh went bust (a club with an amazing history) they had to start at the bottom of the pile. 

When Jersey went bust they had to do the same. In fact you could argue the RFU killed Jersey, as they nearly did to us, with their ridiculous minimum ground criteria. Now this rule is changed to allow ambitious sides 5 years to develop...... 

No one is saying they don't want Worcester to come back, we are simply saying it is completely unfair for them to be shoe horned into tier 2 over more deserving clubs. Some of my most fond memories are the mighty Roth battling it out for promotion against the ferocious Wuss. Awesome games.

Nothing is stopping Worcester fans watching the club rise back up the leagues. What is unfair is for Worcester, who went bust, to waltz in and take a place from a deserving side, whoever that may be. Most likely Richmond and Rams if two were to be promoted from Nat 1 and 1 to be relegated from them prem.
Which the RFU wont do...

Very fair and balanced post. 
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fatbear View Drop Down
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Points: 2983 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 16:18
Richmond and London Scottish also had to restart in the London leagues and work their way back up


Edited by fatbear - Yesterday at 16:19
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Originally posted by Jester10 Jester10 wrote:

Originally posted by titans.chris titans.chris wrote:

When we (Rotherham) nearly went bust there was no help from the RFU, had we gone bust we would have had to start at the bottom of the pyramid. We were extremely lucky that two new investors came in at the 11th hour and saved us. 

I actually played in the pre match friendly as an under 13 against Barnsley. Ulster who the titans were meant to be playing were warming up and no Rotherham team turned up as there was no money. The Ulster lads came and watched our game and went home. We were thinking we were going to be gonners like Wakefield and Orrell. 

As said above we were lucky. 

When London Welsh went bust (a club with an amazing history) they had to start at the bottom of the pile. 

When Jersey went bust they had to do the same. In fact you could argue the RFU killed Jersey, as they nearly did to us, with their ridiculous minimum ground criteria. Now this rule is changed to allow ambitious sides 5 years to develop...... 

No one is saying they don't want Worcester to come back, we are simply saying it is completely unfair for them to be shoe horned into tier 2 over more deserving clubs. Some of my most fond memories are the mighty Roth battling it out for promotion against the ferocious Wuss. Awesome games.

Nothing is stopping Worcester fans watching the club rise back up the leagues. What is unfair is for Worcester, who went bust, to waltz in and take a place from a deserving side, whoever that may be. Most likely Richmond and Rams if two were to be promoted from Nat 1 and 1 to be relegated from them prem.
Which the RFU wont do...

Very fair and balanced post. 

Yes I agree with most of what you say here, and very true that both Richmond and London Scottish also regrouped at the bottom and rose up again (as are London Welsh - currently dominating at Level 5 and soon to be back in the National Leagues).

However, the same is not quite true of the Jersey situation. The current Jersey RFC playing at Level 5 (formerly Jersey Athletic) separated from the professional wing (Jersey Reds) back in 2022. They began life at Level 7 in Counties 1 Hampshire and so not right at the bottom of the pyramid.

Perhaps the wisest decision ever made was separating the two entities at Jersey prior to the professional setup going kaput. The fact it was propped up for so long with around £1m of taxpayers money (unlike other clubs) is another whole topic/thread, but never sat right with me and begs the question why that ever happened, if at the time the club knew they wouldn't meet the MSC. 

At the risk of being demonised, I wouldn't lay all of that farce at the door of the RFU (albeit they can be blamed for plenty of other matters!)


Edited by Nat1 - Yesterday at 17:03
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I think that is fair enough Nat1 - Being honest I am not hugely up to date on the Jersey situation but as you say that is a different topic. 

Rightly pointed out Fatbear - London Scottish and Richmond, two clubs with a huge history both made to re start at the bottom of the pile. 

My point was more of a one rule for them one rule for others. Which I think most of us agree with. I am not disparaging any Worcester supporters, this is out of their hands. No one wants to see a Rugby club go bust but the return to the league should be fair and match what has been done to past clubs in similar positions. 

Unfortunately, I do see a future where Warriors, Wasps and Irish take the place of rightful tier 2 clubs without earning those positions.
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Points: 7730 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote islander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Yesterday at 20:46
It's not actually true that Richmond and London Scottish were made to start right from the bottom. They were actually put in a couple of rungs up, I'm fairly sure at level 9, and worked up from there... county leagues went down to level 12 at the time.

London Welsh (Amateur) won Herts Middx 1 in 2017/18, the season after their pro team was liquidated. Not sure what level that was, but not 'starting right from the bottom' either...

Jersey RFC had just started a season in Regional 2 SC (level 6) in September 2023 when the Reds went pop.

I'm not saying that people criticising the notion that you can parachute a phoenix club straight in at level 2 don't make a very valid point, but nevertheless, I still feel it's important to correct inaccurate comments...
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I believe, though (and my memory may be playing tricks here?) that my hometown club, Rugby Lions, did have to drop right to the bottom of the Midlands structure.
Indeed, I recall them being made to play a season of friendlies before being permitted to enter the leagues, to ensure that they were fit to play.
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fatbear View Drop Down
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Points: 2983 		Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote fatbear Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 43 minutes ago at 11:19
Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

It's not actually true that Richmond and London Scottish were made to start right from the bottom. They were actually put in a couple of rungs up, I'm fairly sure at level 9, and worked up from there... county leagues went down to level 12 at the time.

London Welsh (Amateur) won Herts Middx 1 in 2017/18, the season after their pro team was liquidated. Not sure what level that was, but not 'starting right from the bottom' either...

Jersey RFC had just started a season in Regional 2 SC (level 6) in September 2023 when the Reds went pop.

I'm not saying that people criticising the notion that you can parachute a phoenix club straight in at level 2 don't make a very valid point, but nevertheless, I still feel it's important to correct inaccurate comments...

London Scottish restarted at level 10, so not the absolute lowest level at the time but their Wikipedia page states they started at the bottom level ! Not sure about Richmond, but their Wikipedia page also states they started at the bottom of the pyramid. In any case both were in the lower levels of the London/South East regional structure, possibly like London Welsh where their amateur clubs had been ?
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There was a meeting at Cambridge last night, most of which was confidential.

All I can say is that Cambridge intend to remain in the Championship - we believe we can meet the tier II MOS.

Nothing for next season is cast in stone yet. 
Not even the number of clubs in the league.



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Robb View Drop Down
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Originally posted by fatbear fatbear wrote:

Originally posted by islander islander wrote:

It's not actually true that Richmond and London Scottish were made to start right from the bottom. They were actually put in a couple of rungs up, I'm fairly sure at level 9, and worked up from there... county leagues went down to level 12 at the time.

London Welsh (Amateur) won Herts Middx 1 in 2017/18, the season after their pro team was liquidated. Not sure what level that was, but not 'starting right from the bottom' either...

Jersey RFC had just started a season in Regional 2 SC (level 6) in September 2023 when the Reds went pop.

I'm not saying that people criticising the notion that you can parachute a phoenix club straight in at level 2 don't make a very valid point, but nevertheless, I still feel it's important to correct inaccurate comments...

London Scottish restarted at level 10, so not the absolute lowest level at the time but their Wikipedia page states they started at the bottom level ! Not sure about Richmond, but their Wikipedia page also states they started at the bottom of the pyramid. In any case both were in the lower levels of the London/South East regional structure, possibly like London Welsh where their amateur clubs had been ?

London Welsh and Jersey benefitted from their amateur arms being split off as legally separate clubs. (indeed, London Welsh are still officially listed on RFU registrations as London Welsh Amateur) so it could appear that they jumped a few levels when all that happened (at least in LW's case) was that they just took the name of the dissolved pro club (though in Jersey's case it was just use the original name when they entered the leagues before the Reds went down). 

But I don't think Richmond and LS had amateur arms at the time. Though on Richmond's site it claims they started at Level 9. So perhaps an early precidence of the RFU inserting clubs ahead a few steps in the queue.
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Camquin View Drop Down
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I believe Richmond and LS had amateur teams, but they did not play in the leagues, which were restricted to first XVs. 

So they moved from being in merit tables to the leagues at an equivalent level.
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Originally posted by Camquin Camquin wrote:

I believe Richmond and LS had amateur teams, but they did not play in the leagues, which were restricted to first XVs. 

So they moved from being in merit tables to the leagues at an equivalent level.

That is an accurate picture, Camquin. 

in 99-00 after going into administration, London Scottish were placed in the London Senior Leagues Merit Table and because they topped that, were placed into Herts/Middx 1 (Tier 9) for 00-01, though I am not sure why they did not go into Counties (Herts/Middx) 2 or 3 at the time [my excuse for ignorance is that I was living in America then], possibly because the third division was not a league but a merit table tier and they were deemed to have already 'won' at H/M 2 level - a tier that only came into existence in 00-01.

Richmond's 1st XV played only friendlies in 99-00 and re-entered after a lot of dispute with the RFU in 00-01. If memory serves, they were placed in Herts/Middx 1 because that was where Scottish were and, technically, the two clubs were tied together not just because they shared the ground but also because the professional entities of both had been merged into London Irish (who wore the badges of LS and Rich on the arms of their shirts until at least 2013).

Richmond's progression up the tiers was 00-01 Tier 9, followed by 8, 7, 6, 5 in successive seasons then 5,5,5 then 4,4,4,4, then 3,3,3,3 then 2,2,2,2,- 3 - ,2,2,2,- 3,- 2,2.
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This is an extract from issue 25 of the Rugby Journal. Link to full article beneath it. The person quoted is former LS secretary Paul McFarland. This matches a recent conversation I had with someone who was involved in Middx county admin at the time (and still is).

“So, in 2000 we were faced with life at level nine,” he continues. “We had been promised that we could just drop down a couple of leagues, but that promise was made by someone from the EFDR [precursor to Premiership Rugby] who had no clout. Why would any league allow you in, because someone else would have to be relegated?”. Herts and Middlesex Division One was to be their new home, Richmond pipping Scottish to the title in the first season on points difference. “For the first home game when we played Richmond, we had a crowd of about three and a half thousand. There were games at Sale and Newcastle on the same day, both in the Premiership, which didn’t get 2,000 through the gate. It just showed the strength of support for the two [RAG] clubs.”

It looked as if the two battle each other through every rung of the pyramid, but at that point Richmond split with the Middlesex union to join Surrey. As a result, their ascension back through the leagues was in parallel, but it was Scottish who beat their rivals to the Championship with seven promotions in eleven years.
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