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Is this the light at the end of the tunnel?

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tigerburnie View Drop Down
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    Posted: Yesterday at 18:11
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21 hours 4 minutes ago at 21:19
Oncoming train.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 hours 34 minutes ago at 21:49
More likely an angler fish.
A train would prove there was a way out.

The question is what would a Government review do.
Unless they are going to force a change, like the regulator being created for Soccer.

We could lobby to ave that regulator cover Rugby, I cannot see them setting up a separate regulator. But would that actually help.

We know the 57 old farts did not work well, and the omnipotent board does not work.
But do we have good ideas of what would work well?

If there was a clear path forward, which all the clubs agreed on, then life would be much simpler.

Sweeney Delenda Est
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11 hours 9 minutes ago at 07:14
Split the professional and amateur game. Have a representative from each county body running the amateur game. Give more autonomy to each CB to run the game according to the needs of their members.

Let the Exec concentrate on the professional game. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rothman2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 26 minutes ago at 08:57
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

Split the professional and amateur game. Have a representative from each county body running the amateur game. Give more autonomy to each CB to run the game according to the needs of their members.

Let the Exec concentrate on the professional game. 

At what level do you define Amateur Chris?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 9 hours 6 minutes ago at 09:17
That's a good point. Professional in my mind would be full-time contracted players. Part-time would be amateur.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 58 minutes ago at 10:25
I think that is coming by way of diverting the vote of no confidence, pro game I think will be Prem 1 & 2, the rest go play with yourselves is the likely scenario.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JZSmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 54 minutes ago at 10:29
We had MPs getting involved when Sweeney appeared before the Select Committee over two years ago and what good did that do? So this latest intervention is likely to do nothing for the light in the tunnel in my opinion.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Rothman2 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 7 hours 47 minutes ago at 10:36
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

I think that is coming by way of diverting the vote of no confidence, pro game I think will be Prem 1 & 2, the rest go play with yourselves is the likely scenario.

That is why I believe the change needs to come at the top level management, to a body who wants to work with all clubs in order to help them  match their ambitions and give those clubs who want to progress, the opportunity to do so.


Rugby Chris. 

Nat 1 is a National semi pro league which, I would say more than half of which, have ambitions to go into the Championship.

Once you separate that you are effectively cutting that off which is not acceptable. I am not even sure how many Championship teams are fully professional for that matter. By your definition are they amateur?


The problem as I see it, and we have seen elements of this already, with effectively all other leagues below the Prem, where, teams, potentially including the Championship, being used as a means for Premiership teams to send squad players on a dual registration to those clubs, say in the Championship or Nat 1, which stilts those leagues, potentially giving them an unfair advantage over many clubs. Contrary to that, when those same players are recalled back to the parent club, that has the opposite effect.


This could lead clubs to a loss of identity, so everyone below the Prem may as well revert to the old Merit tables, just using the Leagues below the Prem as a means to give competitive game time to their top heavy squads. My belief is that is what the Prem clubs want (just my opinion) i.e a closed shop, which might benefit them, but not the game as a whole and certainly not the clubs below the Premiership.


To me it would seem as though the Union in this case would be obviating its responsibilities to the other clubs but it is up to the clubs to decide, not to be told what they have to do.



Edited by Rothman2 - 7 hours 46 minutes ago at 10:37
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Halliford Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5 hours 55 minutes ago at 12:28
As someone closely connected with a Nat 1 Club, I don't want a CB to represent us. The CB follows the views of the majority of its Clubs, i.e. Level 8 and below. Those views are dramatically different to the views of Clubs at Levels 3 and 4. We have NLR which has 1 representative on the RFU Council for 52 semi-pro Clubs yet our CB has 2 representatives for 59 Clubs. That is unbalanced.

The Governance and Representation structure needs major changes and the only way to get that change will be to get external views with no connection to the existing Board or Council. The RFGU is promising a Review with i9nitial feedback by July with further consultation after that. We need to see the detail of what is being sought, by whom and what the Terms of Reference will allow the Review to cover.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tigerburnie Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5 hours 16 minutes ago at 13:07
Originally posted by Rothman2 Rothman2 wrote:

Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

I think that is coming by way of diverting the vote of no confidence, pro game I think will be Prem 1 & 2, the rest go play with yourselves is the likely scenario.

The problem as I see it, and we have seen elements of this already, with effectively all other leagues below the Prem, where, teams, potentially including the Championship, being used as a means for Premiership teams to send squad players on a dual registration to those clubs, say in the Championship or Nat 1, which stilts those leagues, potentially giving them an unfair advantage over many clubs. Contrary to that, when those same players are recalled back to the parent club, that has the opposite effect.

This could lead clubs to a loss of identity, so everyone below the Prem may as well revert to the old Merit tables, just using the Leagues below the Prem as a means to give competitive game time to their top heavy squads. My belief is that is what the Prem clubs want (just my opinion) i.e a closed shop, which might benefit them, but not the game as a whole and certainly not the clubs below the Premiership.


Leicester Lions have received no squad players from the Premiership, they have and still are playing dual registered academy players.. They did have a scrum half from Coventry last year who was a "squad player", I think he played twice.
To my knowledge, some  of these academy players have played for other Nat 1 sides and some have had a run out in both Championship sides and in the Championship Cup games, but none have as far as I am aware played in a Premiership game, so not "squad players"
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 5 hours 7 minutes ago at 13:16
Rothman2 - How many teams in the country have the ability to be fully professional and sustainable? None.

Have a league for clubs that want to spend 80% of income on wages and then let the rest of the pyramid compete on a sustainable footing. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 2 hours 46 minutes ago at 15:37
An amateur club is one where income exceeds expenditure.

In the good old days at Cambridge we got by well on:

- Player Subscriptions
- Match fees (remember them?) to cover laundry and post match sausage & beans
- Bar income
- Fundraising e.g. monthly discos and  Chrisdtmas mega-raffle

The only paid employee was a part time bar manager - but only on match days.
We had an away coach trip once aa year!

No player insurance
No player wages
No medical attendance

We now have:
- Players salaries
- Coaching staff
- Medical
- Player insurance
- Sponsorship
- Gate takings
- RFU funding
- increased travel expectation / costs




Edited by FHLH - 56 minutes ago at 17:27
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 44 minutes ago at 16:39
To follow up on Amateur / Professional:

Level 1 - Prem - 10 clubs - Fully professional
Level 2 - Champ - 12 clubs - Mix of fully professional and semi pro
Level 3 - Nat 1 - 14 clubs - all semi pro with perhaps one full time player / coach
Level 4 - Nat 2 - 3 x 14 clubs - mostly Semi pro but on match fees

78 clubs with payment of some description (36 to Level 3)

Level 5 - Regional 1 - 6 x 12 clubs - I'm sure there's come jobs/houses/travel in there (but only guessing)
Level 6 - Regional 2 - 12 x 12 clubs - hopefully amateur
Level 7 - Counties 1 - 18 x 12 clubs - surely amateur

432 clubs with amateur bias

Level 8, 9, 10,11 - all amateur (haven't counted them yet!)




Edited by FHLH - 1 hour 41 minutes ago at 16:42
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cheshire exile Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 34 minutes ago at 16:49
Too much time on your handsLOL
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 32 minutes ago at 16:51
Originally posted by cheshire exile cheshire exile wrote:

Too much time on your handsLOL

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 1 hour 3 minutes ago at 17:20
Suggestion:

Levels 1 & 2 - 24 clubs as proposed (10 + 14) - inc 1 promotion & 1 relegation - funding 80% 20%

Levels 3 & 4  - 56 clubs - 4 x 14 - play off for 1 promotion place

London Group
Midlands Group
Northern Group
South Western Group

- No DR / loan except full season loan
- England players from clubs worldwide, not just Premiership - so include Championship & BUCS for example - does not restrict their future career options
- limit full time players in Levels 3 & 4 (or below) say, 2
- compulsory referee training for 2 players / club
- reduce bench to 4
- is there room for a Counties Cup?

Sounds familiar  Big smileBig smile


Edited by FHLH - 56 minutes ago at 17:27
"My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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