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Worcester & Wasps

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WEvans View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Worcester & Wasps
    Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 14:57
Originally posted by Fly Half Fly Half wrote:

Wasps?  Am I correct in believing that the new owners of Wasps need to clear all rugby related debts, in order to take their position in the Championship next season? I believe the total debt amounts to approx £100 mill - quite unbelievable - how much of that is 'rugby related'? i.e. essentially how much do the new owners have to fork out, in order to be in the Championship next season?

The latest story in the Telegraph is even more worrying, particularly for Irish and Harlequins, whilst it has also emerged that Sales attempt to buy the Stadium has fallen through and ownership will remain with the Council.

I think you will find that "rugby related" covers a very small proportion of the money Wasps extracted from very many different individuals and businesses who will be left wondering why this disreputable club will be allowed to carry on as though they had done almost nothing wrong at all. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 11:04
And how has the closely scrutinised business plan from the new incarnation managed to raise year on year income by such a significant level to create a solvent entity? 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Fly Half Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22 Dec 2022 at 10:04
Wasps?  Am I correct in believing that the new owners of Wasps need to clear all rugby related debts, in order to take their position in the Championship next season? I believe the total debt amounts to approx £100 mill - quite unbelievable - how much of that is 'rugby related'? i.e. essentially how much do the new owners have to fork out, in order to be in the Championship next season?

The latest story in the Telegraph is even more worrying, particularly for Irish and Harlequins, whilst it has also emerged that Sales attempt to buy the Stadium has fallen through and ownership will remain with the Council.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ParkBench Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20 Dec 2022 at 17:46
More info on the Worcester takeover:


Key quotes pasted below (but it's taken from the post linked above) - note the mention of a new PRL creditor :

Administrators entered into a preferred bidder agreement with Atlas to acquire the club, together with the stadium and surrounding land, in October.

A statement from the administrators at Begbies said they are "willing to re-enter into discussions with any interested parties, although they will first need to satisfy the RFU's takeover process given the conditions being placed on any proposed purchase".

It added: "We await confirmation from the RFU on the relevant timelines for them to reach this position given the urgency of the matter. This must include total clarity on the rugby creditor position given the very late notice of an additional material claim from the PRL which other interested parties were not aware of.

"The joint administrators' statutory duty is to maximise the return to creditors. Therefore, any offer from interested parties must equal or exceed the offer made by Atlas Worcester Warriors.

"We urge the relevant stakeholders to work collaboratively and in a timely manner with all interested parties (including Atlas Worcester Warriors) to ensure that elite rugby remains in Worcester."
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 23:19
I wonder why the word 'corrup t' needs to be corrup ted by this board?
How ridiculous.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Moseleyfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 23:13
I sense revolution in in the air. Revenge is a dish best served cold. Time to bring the whole Lovely edifice down. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 19:26
Can someone explain to me how relegation to the Championship is a relevant sanction when that is something that could have happened anyway - even to well run financially viable Prem clubs (if there are any?)
How does that send a message to others that gross mismanagement and financial shenanigans won't be tolerated? Disregarding their own rules and regulations is surely against their constitution and therefore by definition unlawful. Tell you what let's make it a mandatory £10 fine for murder that'll put people off!
Disgrace beyond compare - action from the rest of the Community game is required to bring these cowboys to account and get ourselves a capable and equitable governing body that looks after all its members, not just the top table


Edited by Thatbloke - 19 Dec 2022 at 19:27
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote WEvans Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 18:48
Originally posted by tigerburnie tigerburnie wrote:

After the way that Wasps have fleeced their fans and it seems the new owners will not be re paying them in full, I will be surprised if many will show up in Solihull to watch Brummijum Pests.

That's LondonWycombeCoventryBirmingham Defaulters to you tigerburnie!

Or let's just call them LWCB Defaulters for short.


Edited by WEvans - 19 Dec 2022 at 18:49
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Thatbloke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 14:03
Old Nick - keep watching these spaces - much is going on behind the scenes to bring the RFU to account. Can't say more at this stage! 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote OldNick Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 13:47
While everyone has sympathy for the players, staff, and creditors of both the two failed clubs, there is no doubt that in both cases their financial management prior to administration crossed the line between astute conduct and Lovelyion. Actions such as not paying PAYE for their employees, transferring properties between subsidiary companies to move them outside the scope of administration, dissolving trusts put in place to ensure separation of assets from operating failures, and other si.ilar measures all occurred, and all fall outside the bounds of proper financial conduct.

So, what happens when the applications are made to allow the names, and high tier status of the two clubs to survive as Phoenix clubs?The Worcester phoenix throws it's teddy out of the pram when it appears that the RFU is going to require a level of ongoing scrutiny of their affairs that we can all see is necessary for not just them, but every Premiership club, present or future.
With Wasps it is even worse - they blackmail the RFU with the threat that as they have no viable plan to comply with regulation 5.1 regarding staying in the same ground for 3 years they will fold (with all the bad publicity from their Legends group of popular former players), unless the RFU breaks their own rules to allow them (first) to play at an alternative ground ten miles down the A45  from Coventry, and even then to not be required to commit to playing there for the minimum three seasons required by the regulations.

In response to which the RFU bends, breaks its own rules (designed to ensure financial probity) and allows Wasps to set up shop a short 15inutes drive from Coventry rugby club.

I wonder how many players' agents at 3rd placed Coventry have already been contacted to recruit the Wasps team for promotion next season.

This action by the RFU stinks of Lovelyion, doing deals with the d  oys former players network to ensure survival of one of the cartel, by disregarding their own rules, put in place to ensure financial probity. They have put themselves in the same bracket as the spivs and shysters who brought down these two clubs .


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KnightsBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 12:26
Originally posted by Kimbo Kimbo wrote:

"They don't pass the test" Nick Johnston, CEO of Coventry Rugby Club responds to Wasps return to the Championship.

Wasps have been given approval to play in the Championship, if they adhere to a number of conditions.
The club was first suspended, then removed from the Premiership after going into administration.

They've been given the green light to return to the Championship, the second tier of pro-rugby in England, after the RFU approved the sale of the collapsed club to a group headed by the Wasps Legends charity.

However it's rumoured the club will play at Solihull Moors ground and not the CBS Arena, although they'll play Cov at the Butts Park Arena at least once next season. So how's this going down with Coventry Rugby?

Phil Upton spoke to Nick Johnston, the CEO of the Butts Park club.

Release date:

Great statement from Coventry, I hope this encourages other championship club too make their stance clear.


Edited by KnightsBoy - 19 Dec 2022 at 12:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dumbape Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 10:39
Phil Upton makes some really good points about the arrogance and lack of consistency at HQ.
What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 10:28

"They don't pass the test" Nick Johnston, CEO of Coventry Rugby Club responds to Wasps return to the Championship.

Wasps have been given approval to play in the Championship, if they adhere to a number of conditions.
The club was first suspended, then removed from the Premiership after going into administration.

They've been given the green light to return to the Championship, the second tier of pro-rugby in England, after the RFU approved the sale of the collapsed club to a group headed by the Wasps Legends charity.

However it's rumoured the club will play at Solihull Moors ground and not the CBS Arena, although they'll play Cov at the Butts Park Arena at least once next season. So how's this going down with Coventry Rugby?

Phil Upton spoke to Nick Johnston, the CEO of the Butts Park club.

Release date:



Edited by Kimbo - 19 Dec 2022 at 10:30
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Kimbo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 10:26
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Robb Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 22:55
Originally posted by Runitback Runitback wrote:

Wasps will fail . . . they have no heritage at their latest venue, they will get no supporters and they will incur huge losses in a vain attempt to get back to the Premiership! I wish them no luck at all . . . Worcester at least have some support . .  but both should start from the bottom again!

Though that's the problem, they can do a London Welsh and just consume their amateur clubs already in the leagues (Wasps FC and Worcester RFC) to skip ahead a few seasons. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 20:01
PS the RFU has no understanding of how to run the game  . . time for a significant change
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Runitback Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 20:00
Wasps will fail . . . they have no heritage at their latest venue, they will get no supporters and they will incur huge losses in a vain attempt to get back to the Premiership! I wish them no luck at all . . . Worcester at least have some support . .  but both should start from the bottom again!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 15:30
Originally posted by rugbychris rugbychris wrote:

The RFU is desperately unfit for the modern game. It should be split in two. A focus on the pro game and a focus on the amateur game. The two are miles apart from each other and require  a totally different focus, with the professional game taking the vast majority of any day to day attention.

Regrettably I think you are right. 

It's (just) a question of how many clubs are in the professional tier - two leagues of 12 (11 + 12 + 1 promoted). Two differential levels of funding - but enough to make promotion from level 2 feasible [but who has oversight?]

That leaves National 1 as the de facto pinnacle for mortals. Too much for Christmas but worth a BBC briefing!


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 10:38
I can speak for my club. The advantage that the RFU have and rely upon is that many clubs (like mine) are very short on volunteers and all our focus is on goes to organising and running our own club. 

The RFU is desperately unfit for the modern game. It should be split in two. A focus on the pro game and a focus on the amateur game. The two are miles apart from each other and require  a totally different focus, with the professional game taking the vast majority of any day to day attention.

In the first instance we just need 100 clubs to call an EGM. I think that would initially be a shock to the RFU system. Quite newsworthy too. The BBC in particular love kicking English rugby so I am sure they would love to air any grievances. 

Start with the 100. Have a properly defined list of glaring RFU incompetence and grow the number of clubs through press and direct contact throughout the season.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dumbape Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 03:11
I advise a lawyer too, ideally someone with experience or connections to NGO, mutual societies and charities. To start with look at the structure and look at the relationships between the Primary stakeholders. This would include RFU as the governing body and the limited companies it has set up. Any information on commitments to the DCMS and Sport England should be included. Also in the PRA the new entities they created that I think look like thinly veiled liability shield/financial cutout. Clubs themselves are less important, but understanding their finances is really important, especially if charities are involved.
Fifteen years ago it looked like there was a potential breach of arising from the actions of senior officers on how they are expected to consult and act reasonably in the interests of their stakeholders.
Creating regulations for the management of the game falls to the RFU. While Wuss and Wasps are members the management committee, Board and Council should exercise judgement that is in the best interest of all stakeholders. Changing regs that have a material effect on other clubs such as those mooted around the leagues and that contravene the regulations already in place is clearly actionable.

Doing any of this though is a likely to be time consuming and expensive. This is something that protects those responsible from being held to account. A better way IMO is through the DCMS and Sport England initially. They made loans and grants that came with conditions. The quickest way to get folks to change tack is to place the spotlight on them in a determined and focused way. Put pressure on RFU Council Members to actually do their jobs - they are in effect Non- Executive Directors and they have specific duties. If they can’t understand the report and accounts, don’t understand the governance obligations they have then they need to either get help so they do understand or step down. Rugby Clubs across the land have plenty of professional people working in these areas and our representatives only have to ask for some advice and guidance from them.
Collective action and transparency is key though as is the willingness to rock the boat really hard.
The alternative is that the game continues on a trajectory that splits the whole structure of the game into pieces that’ll be easier to keep in their place will an Elite runs our game into the ground.

What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes!
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