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billesleyexile
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Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 14:31 |
Thatbloke wrote:
I have to agree totally with Fly-Half and Sid James. Clubs are totally over-staffed in every area. Players, coaches, back-room staff.First job - get rid of the ridiculous 23man match day squads - it's a pantomine last half hour in every game with players trooping on and off every two minutes. Surely 19 or 20 with Interchanges would work perfectly well and negate the need for 50+ squads. Ok some players will become unemployed (or go part-time) - welcome to the real world! Second job - why is it necessary to have DoR, then Head Coach, Forwards coach, Backs coach, Scrum coach, Line out coach, Kicking coach, Attack coach, Defence coach, Shoe-Lace tying coach, Video analysts- It's laughable! Third job - Doctor, Team of Physios, Strength and Conditioning people Playing at Premier League Football clubs with a fraction of the income It's not rocket science is it? |
I'd make savings in your first and second groups, but protect or indeed slightly reinforce the third to be honest.
1) fewer players 2) streamlined coaching teams - I can see the case for DoR, forwards/defensive coach and backs coach as a trio. Like it or not *an* analyst would almost certainly justify their cost too. Especially with smaller squads... 3) a medical/physio/S&C team will be worth its weight in gold with a smaller squad, probably working with the analyst to some extent... You probably don't need 412 of them, but I can make a good case for a doctor (probably on retainer rather than employed), physio, and 2 x S&C.
Overall I don't disagree that much, but I think reducing (1) is linked to protecting (3) - especially given all the medical issues swirling round the game.
I should probably say that I've got no medical connections whatsoever, it just seems sensible!
Edited by billesleyexile - 12 Oct 2023 at 14:32
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Bedford Bear
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Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 15:13 |
Thatbloke wrote:
I have to agree totally with Fly-Half and Sid James. Clubs are totally over-staffed in every area. Players, coaches, back-room staff.First job - get rid of the ridiculous 23man match day squads - it's a pantomine last half hour in every game with players trooping on and off every two minutes. Surely 19 or 20 with Interchanges would work perfectly well and negate the need for 50+ squads. Ok some players will become unemployed (or go part-time) - welcome to the real world! Second job - why is it necessary to have DoR, then Head Coach, Forwards coach, Backs coach, Scrum coach, Line out coach, Kicking coach, Attack coach, Defence coach, Shoe-Lace tying coach, Video analysts- It's laughable! Third job - Doctor, Team of Physios, Strength and Conditioning people Playing at Premier League Football clubs with a fraction of the income It's not rocket science is it? |
"Staffed" or volunteers and internships in many cases to gain experiences! From my experiences many of the positions you quote aren't paid jobs
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Thatbloke
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Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 19:23 |
I accept that there will be a few youngsters on "placements" in various areas of the game as part of their professional development but the notion that full time Premiership and Championship clubs are run by a gang of volunteers is somewhat fanciful to say the least. Surely the job of a Forwards coach would involve the core basics - scrum, line out, breakdown. Why is there a need for a specialist for every category? I don't blame the individuals for taking the jobs when offered but sooner or later, too many examples to list, the money will run out! Common sense and sound financial management should be at the core of every business, sport or otherwise. Why does RU think it's different in some way?
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Sid James
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Posted: 12 Oct 2023 at 22:45 |
Bedford Bear wrote:
Thatbloke wrote:
I have to agree totally with Fly-Half and Sid James. Clubs are totally over-staffed in every area. Players, coaches, back-room staff.First job - get rid of the ridiculous 23man match day squads - it's a pantomine last half hour in every game with players trooping on and off every two minutes. Surely 19 or 20 with Interchanges would work perfectly well and negate the need for 50+ squads. Ok some players will become unemployed (or go part-time) - welcome to the real world! Second job - why is it necessary to have DoR, then Head Coach, Forwards coach, Backs coach, Scrum coach, Line out coach, Kicking coach, Attack coach, Defence coach, Shoe-Lace tying coach, Video analysts- It's laughable! Third job - Doctor, Team of Physios, Strength and Conditioning people Playing at Premier League Football clubs with a fraction of the income It's not rocket science is it? |
"Staffed" or volunteers and internships in many cases to gain experiences! From my experiences many of the positions you quote aren't paid jobs |
Oh come on. Every Club has it's volunteers but that is not what we are talking about here. Most Championship clubs are massively over staffed on and off the field. We are concerned with where all of the money is going and why Championship Clubs need so much money to simply exist rather than break even.
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corporalcarrot
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 07:55 |
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billesleyexile
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 08:42 |
Sid James wrote:
Bedford Bear wrote:
Thatbloke wrote:
I have to agree totally with Fly-Half and Sid James. Clubs are totally over-staffed in every area. Players, coaches, back-room staff.First job - get rid of the ridiculous 23man match day squads - it's a pantomine last half hour in every game with players trooping on and off every two minutes. Surely 19 or 20 with Interchanges would work perfectly well and negate the need for 50+ squads. Ok some players will become unemployed (or go part-time) - welcome to the real world! Second job - why is it necessary to have DoR, then Head Coach, Forwards coach, Backs coach, Scrum coach, Line out coach, Kicking coach, Attack coach, Defence coach, Shoe-Lace tying coach, Video analysts- It's laughable! Third job - Doctor, Team of Physios, Strength and Conditioning people Playing at Premier League Football clubs with a fraction of the income It's not rocket science is it? |
"Staffed" or volunteers and internships in many cases to gain experiences! From my experiences many of the positions you quote aren't paid jobs |
Oh come on. Every Club has it's volunteers but that is not what we are talking about here. Most Championship clubs are massively over staffed on and off the field. We are concerned with where all of the money is going and why Championship Clubs need so much money to simply exist rather than break even. |
I can sort of see this from both sides of the fence tbh - Moseley managed a decade at level 2 without much infrastructure to speak of *(until the last season, ironically) and with an enormous reliance on volunteers. What it did mean was that when we eventually went down obviously we had to make painful cuts but at the same time we didn't implode because much of the club was already operating on a long-term amateur shoestring basis.
However, while we were at level 2 it was blindingly obvious that we were never going to kick on (7th was our best ever finish when the team played out of their skins) without becoming more professional and spending a lot more money.
Over the long term I was happy (and would rather) that I was following a more sustainable club than some, but at the same time it's a tricky position to be in when all the clubs around you are in an arms race and writing big cheques.
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Richard Lowther
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 09:18 |
Rugby League are not exempt, Newcastle Thunder are expected to fold today after their investors pulled the plug.
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cheshire exile
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 10:17 |
Richard Lowther wrote:
Rugby League are not exempt, Newcastle Thunder are expected to fold today after their investors pulled the plug. |
And of course London Skolars recently folded.
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Richard Lowther
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 10:45 |
cheshire exile wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
Rugby League are not exempt, Newcastle Thunder are expected to fold today after their investors pulled the plug. |
And of course London Skolars recently folded. |
Have they? I just thought they had dropped out of the League 1 and intend to play in the Southern Conference next season.
Either way it shows the perilous state of both codes especially as there are rumours that Toulouse RL who are playing off for a SuperLeague place are on the verge of running out of money.
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Bedford Bear
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 15:57 |
Sid James wrote:
Bedford Bear wrote:
Thatbloke wrote:
I have to agree totally with Fly-Half and Sid James. Clubs are totally over-staffed in every area. Players, coaches, back-room staff.First job - get rid of the ridiculous 23man match day squads - it's a pantomine last half hour in every game with players trooping on and off every two minutes. Surely 19 or 20 with Interchanges would work perfectly well and negate the need for 50+ squads. Ok some players will become unemployed (or go part-time) - welcome to the real world! Second job - why is it necessary to have DoR, then Head Coach, Forwards coach, Backs coach, Scrum coach, Line out coach, Kicking coach, Attack coach, Defence coach, Shoe-Lace tying coach, Video analysts- It's laughable! Third job - Doctor, Team of Physios, Strength and Conditioning people Playing at Premier League Football clubs with a fraction of the income It's not rocket science is it? |
"Staffed" or volunteers and internships in many cases to gain experiences! From my experiences many of the positions you quote aren't paid jobs |
Oh come on. Every Club has it's volunteers but that is not what we are talking about here. Most Championship clubs are massively over staffed on and off the field. We are concerned with where all of the money is going and why Championship Clubs need so much money to simply exist rather than break even. |
From my 8 years experience, many positions that you mention were not full time paid professionals and had full time employment elsewhere.
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cheshire exile
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 17:49 |
Sid James wrote:
Bedford Bear wrote:
Thatbloke wrote:
I have to agree totally with Fly-Half and Sid James. Clubs are totally over-staffed in every area. Players, coaches, back-room staff.First job - get rid of the ridiculous 23man match day squads - it's a pantomine last half hour in every game with players trooping on and off every two minutes. Surely 19 or 20 with Interchanges would work perfectly well and negate the need for 50+ squads. Ok some players will become unemployed (or go part-time) - welcome to the real world! Second job - why is it necessary to have DoR, then Head Coach, Forwards coach, Backs coach, Scrum coach, Line out coach, Kicking coach, Attack coach, Defence coach, Shoe-Lace tying coach, Video analysts- It's laughable! Third job - Doctor, Team of Physios, Strength and Conditioning people Playing at Premier League Football clubs with a fraction of the income It's not rocket science is it? |
"Staffed" or volunteers and internships in many cases to gain experiences! From my experiences many of the positions you quote aren't paid jobs |
Oh come on. Every Club has it's volunteers but that is not what we are talking about here. Most Championship clubs are massively over staffed on and off the field. We are concerned with where all of the money is going and why Championship Clubs need so much money to simply exist rather than break even. |
I’m sure we all defer to your detailed knowledge of employee details at Championship clubs.
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gerg_861
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Posted: 13 Oct 2023 at 18:45 |
Richard Lowther wrote:
cheshire exile wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
Rugby League are not exempt, Newcastle Thunder are expected to fold today after their investors pulled the plug. |
And of course London Skolars recently folded. |
Have they? I just thought they had dropped out of the League 1 and intend to play in the Southern Conference next season.
Either way it shows the perilous state of both codes especially as there are rumours that Toulouse RL who are playing off for a SuperLeague place are on the verge of running out of money. |
Key point to be made here that NewCastle Falcons owner also owned Thunder.
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Sid James
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Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 09:32 |
cheshire exile wrote:
Sid James wrote:
Bedford Bear wrote:
Thatbloke wrote:
I have to agree totally with Fly-Half and Sid James. Clubs are totally over-staffed in every area. Players, coaches, back-room staff.First job - get rid of the ridiculous 23man match day squads - it's a pantomine last half hour in every game with players trooping on and off every two minutes. Surely 19 or 20 with Interchanges would work perfectly well and negate the need for 50+ squads. Ok some players will become unemployed (or go part-time) - welcome to the real world! Second job - why is it necessary to have DoR, then Head Coach, Forwards coach, Backs coach, Scrum coach, Line out coach, Kicking coach, Attack coach, Defence coach, Shoe-Lace tying coach, Video analysts- It's laughable! Third job - Doctor, Team of Physios, Strength and Conditioning people Playing at Premier League Football clubs with a fraction of the income It's not rocket science is it? |
"Staffed" or volunteers and internships in many cases to gain experiences! From my experiences many of the positions you quote aren't paid jobs |
Oh come on. Every Club has it's volunteers but that is not what we are talking about here. Most Championship clubs are massively over staffed on and off the field. We are concerned with where all of the money is going and why Championship Clubs need so much money to simply exist rather than break even. |
I’m sure we all defer to your detailed knowledge of employee details at Championship clubs. |
Don't defer to me for anything. Just wake up to reality.
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SK 88
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Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 17:32 |
Bedford Bear wrote:
Not as I understood it. There was loan funding and tax payers money used for grant funding.
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Well you have misunderstood then. There were no grants to UK clubs.
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SK 88
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Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 17:41 |
gerg_861 wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
cheshire exile wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
Rugby League are not exempt, Newcastle Thunder are expected to fold today after their investors pulled the plug. |
And of course London Skolars recently folded. |
Have they? I just thought they had dropped out of the League 1 and intend to play in the Southern Conference next season.
Either way it shows the perilous state of both codes especially as there are rumours that Toulouse RL who are playing off for a SuperLeague place are on the verge of running out of money. |
Key point to be made here that NewCastle Falcons owner also owned Thunder. |
Not wanting to split hairs, but the Falcons owned Thunder as a wholly owned subsidiary, it wasn't a separate company also owned by Kurdi. Notably Kingston Park is a legally separate company from the Falcons.
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Sedge Tiger
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Posted: 14 Oct 2023 at 17:51 |
If it helps. It’s the League 1 restructuring or lack of it (ring fencing the Championship RL level 2)that has frustrated both clubs to drop out of the league. I’m sure we all know about that and share the same frustration in our code too.
All the best
ST
Edited by Sedge Tiger - 14 Oct 2023 at 18:46
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maire23
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Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 13:14 |
SK 88 wrote:
gerg_861 wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
cheshire exile wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
Rugby League are not exempt, Newcastle Thunder are expected to fold today after their investors pulled the plug. |
And of course London Skolars recently folded. |
Have they? I just thought they had dropped out of the League 1 and intend to play in the Southern Conference next season.
Either way it shows the perilous state of both codes especially as there are rumours that Toulouse RL who are playing off for a SuperLeague place are on the verge of running out of money. |
Key point to be made here that NewCastle Falcons owner also owned Thunder. |
Not wanting to split hairs, but the Falcons owned Thunder as a wholly owned subsidiary, it wasn't a separate company also owned by Kurdi. Notably Kingston Park is a legally separate company from the Falcons. |
Is Kingston Park still owned by Northumbria University? Edit- it seems the Falcons now own the ground.
Edited by maire23 - 15 Oct 2023 at 13:17
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Camquin
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Posted: 15 Oct 2023 at 14:26 |
According to Wikipedia, Falcons bought the ground back from the University in 2015. But I cannot see it as an asset on the group accounts. I think it belongs to the Newcastle Rugby KP Ltd, that belongs to their principal shareholder I Kurdi.
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WEvans
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Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 14:45 |
SK 88 wrote:
Bedford Bear wrote:
Not as I understood it. There was loan funding and tax payers money used for grant funding.
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Well you have misunderstood then. There were no grants to UK clubs. |
So taxpayers money used to fund loans not grants then. Less cost to the taxpayer but a cost nevertheless.
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Raider999
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Posted: 16 Oct 2023 at 16:27 |
WEvans wrote:
SK 88 wrote:
Bedford Bear wrote:
Not as I understood it. There was loan funding and tax payers money used for grant funding.
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Well you have misunderstood then. There were no grants to UK clubs. |
So taxpayers money used to fund loans not grants then. Less cost to the taxpayer but a cost nevertheless. | Same upfront cost to the taxpayer - just a possibility that some of these loans will get repaid
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