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Premiership II plans announced

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*Stalwart View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote *Stalwart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12 Sep 2024 at 20:40
Originally posted by sedgley dave sedgley dave wrote:

I suppose, Richard L, that when the Championship morphs into Prem II, those clubs might be expected to have similar Academy set ups? I am asking, not saying.

I read, somewhere, that Leeds (or Yorkshire) already has an RFU approved / supported academy, and a youngster from Cornwall might be able to progress at Pirates rather than have to trek to Exeter, when the change happens, if he can't already. Plus there would be Doncaster for the Yorkie boys. Again, I am asking, not stating.

The place you wouldn't want to be is the Cumbrian coast, Workington or Whitehaven! Or somewhere like Great Yarmouth.

Many years ago, when both clubs were in the second tier, the academy was taken away from The Pirates and given to Exeter because they had better facilities. This has meant that Exeter now hoover up all the top talent in Cornwall (mostly through their link up with Truro College). It is a shame that Cornish boys have to trek to Exeter to chase their dream of being a pro rugby player. The hope was that the new stadium in Truro would provide top class facilities and maybe convince the powers that be to nurture the talent in Cornwall rather than exporting it to England. Now, sadly, the stadium dream has died so the status quo remains.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Breakdown Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 08:11
This from The Daily Telegraph last night: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/09/12/premiership-considering-proposal-anglo-welsh-league/

Can anyone explain to me how Premiership Rugby would reconcile a British & Irish League that replaces the current English Tier One with the Professional Game "Partnership", so much heralded about a week ago?

How could PRL be "partners" to an English game on which they have just turned their back for the sake of money?

And how could the RFU justify continuing to pay the £33m a year to the Premiership clubs when they had all just decided their future was best guaranteed by playing against Irish, Scottish and Welsh clubs in a league that could, presumably, not envisage promotion and relegation?

What strikes me as particularly weird about this is the timing. Normally when you see a leaked proposal of this kind, it is 'kite-flying' aimed at adding what American management consultants call 'leverage' to a commercial negotiation. But the Premiership has just signed a huge commercial negotiation with the RFU (or 'us' as I continue to think of it, despite all available evidence to the contrary). So who are they trying to 'lever'?

Maybe it is, as the Telegraph hints, an effort to create a market for TV rights. The £26m a year (for only 2 years) that PRL received from Discovery for their rights was way below the target figure set for their management by the clubs.

All very confusing. But when it comes to the Professional Game Partnership, i am reminded of an old joke in a TV industry that a 'partnership' with the BBC was something to BBC does TO you. The RFU looks very naive in this light.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 08:26
Originally posted by Breakdown Breakdown wrote:

This from The Daily Telegraph last night: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/09/12/premiership-considering-proposal-anglo-welsh-league/

Can anyone explain to me how Premiership Rugby would reconcile a British & Irish League that replaces the current English Tier One with the Professional Game "Partnership", so much heralded about a week ago?

How could PRL be "partners" to an English game on which they have just turned their back for the sake of money?

And how could the RFU justify continuing to pay the £33m a year to the Premiership clubs when they had all just decided their future was best guaranteed by playing against Irish, Scottish and Welsh clubs in a league that could, presumably, not envisage promotion and relegation?

What strikes me as particularly weird about this is the timing. Normally when you see a leaked proposal of this kind, it is 'kite-flying' aimed at adding what American management consultants call 'leverage' to a commercial negotiation. But the Premiership has just signed a huge commercial negotiation with the RFU (or 'us' as I continue to think of it, despite all available evidence to the contrary). So who are they trying to 'lever'?

Maybe it is, as the Telegraph hints, an effort to create a market for TV rights. The £26m a year (for only 2 years) that PRL received from Discovery for their rights was way below the target figure set for their management by the clubs.

All very confusing. But when it comes to the Professional Game Partnership, i am reminded of an old joke in a TV industry that a 'partnership' with the BBC was something to BBC does TO you. The RFU looks very naive in this light.  

I am surprised it has taken this long for the suggestions of a British and Irish League to emerge, I thought it would have been one of the first suggestions of CVC, once they bought into both leagues, to 'leverage' their investment and get some return from it. 

What makes the concept difficult is the South African involvement in the URC.  Would they (and the Italians) be included in any revamped competition?   Could we see a combined league but with conferences - (and maybe extended to include other countries - I'm not thinking of the logic here of Georgian or Spanish teams but that pipedream of the USA)?

Personally I don't see it happening in the short term - something will happen in the longer term, possibly once existing contracts end. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Richard Lowther Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 08:27
Originally posted by sedgley dave sedgley dave wrote:

I suppose, Richard L, that when the Championship morphs into Prem II, those clubs might be expected to have similar Academy set ups? I am asking, not saying.

I read, somewhere, that Leeds (or Yorkshire) already has an RFU approved / supported academy, and a youngster from Cornwall might be able to progress at Pirates rather than have to trek to Exeter, when the change happens, if he can't already. Plus there would be Doncaster for the Yorkie boys. Again, I am asking, not stating.

The place you wouldn't want to be is the Cumbrian coast, Workington or Whitehaven! Or somewhere like Great Yarmouth.


But there will be no money for Premiership 2 clubs to run academies - and the Premiership 1 clubs wouldn't want them to have money to compete for talent. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mark W-J Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 08:53
The academies are like franchises - the licence to run it is granted by the RFU, and they carve up the county pathways to decide which clubs the young players will feed into. This is the main reason why clubs outside the Prem have closed their academies - their best players were being hoovered up by the system from around age 13.

Last week the RFU published a map of the new boundaries for the 10 regional academies. There used to be 14, but London Irish, Wasps and Worcester (which have been run under regional names for the last year or two) have now disappeared, as has the Yorkshire one which was originally run by Leeds.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 09:36
For me the reconciliation of PRL discussions about B&I league are based on the CVC ownership and the rose-tinted glasses (I have a pair) around an Anglo-Welsh league.

PRL need to discuss every version of the future if they're doing their job properly.

The definitions of what is a club is so different in the 4 countries that I just can't see it happening.

England should be trying to emulate French rugby as much as possible and trim it to suit the fan base.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 11:11
Originally posted by Mark W-J Mark W-J wrote:

The academies are like franchises - the licence to run it is granted by the RFU, and they carve up the county pathways to decide which clubs the young players will feed into. This is the main reason why clubs outside the Prem have closed their academies - their best players were being hoovered up by the system from around age 13.

Last week the RFU published a map of the new boundaries for the 10 regional academies. There used to be 14, but London Irish, Wasps and Worcester (which have been run under regional names for the last year or two) have now disappeared, as has the Yorkshire one which was originally run by Leeds.


It beats me why local clubs engage with the Academy system at all. You get an email each season encouraging coaches to bring their best players along to be vetted. If they do get into the pathway the likelihood is that they will be spat out by 17. By this time they are disheartened and had their fill of rugby.

Benefit to local club = Zero

Create your own academies that are club agnostic. If you have a great player then they at least have a choice of multiple clubs they could play with home or abroad. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JZSmith Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 12:10
Originally posted by Breakdown Breakdown wrote:

This from The Daily Telegraph last night: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2024/09/12/premiership-considering-proposal-anglo-welsh-league/

Can anyone explain to me how Premiership Rugby would reconcile a British & Irish League that replaces the current English Tier One with the Professional Game "Partnership", so much heralded about a week ago?

How could PRL be "partners" to an English game on which they have just turned their back for the sake of money?

And how could the RFU justify continuing to pay the £33m a year to the Premiership clubs when they had all just decided their future was best guaranteed by playing against Irish, Scottish and Welsh clubs in a league that could, presumably, not envisage promotion and relegation?

What strikes me as particularly weird about this is the timing. Normally when you see a leaked proposal of this kind, it is 'kite-flying' aimed at adding what American management consultants call 'leverage' to a commercial negotiation. But the Premiership has just signed a huge commercial negotiation with the RFU (or 'us' as I continue to think of it, despite all available evidence to the contrary). So who are they trying to 'lever'?

Maybe it is, as the Telegraph hints, an effort to create a market for TV rights. The £26m a year (for only 2 years) that PRL received from Discovery for their rights was way below the target figure set for their management by the clubs.

All very confusing. But when it comes to the Professional Game Partnership, i am reminded of an old joke in a TV industry that a 'partnership' with the BBC was something to BBC does TO you. The RFU looks very naive in this light.  

Breakdown I can answer all your questions at once - ££££

Logic, honesty, duty and integrity are words that are foreign to PRL and the RFU and form no part of any decision making.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13 Sep 2024 at 15:29
Originally posted by JZSmith JZSmith wrote:

[Q
Breakdown I can answer all your questions at once - ££££

Logic, honesty, duty and integrity are words that are foreign to PRL and the RFU and form no part of any decision making.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MarkyMark Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 07:41
As a coach from U7 to colts, this is my experience of the “pathway”. You get an invite to a local tournament, academy coaches are there with their clip boards. They watch you for 10-20 mins then pick players which they like (on one occasion a lad was picked having never played rugby, it was his first game for us). They then go to a few training sessions. The parents though, get their heads turned, blame the club that they are not good enough, which in turn means they leave the smaller clubs and all the kids end up in a few “big” colts teams whilst a lot fold. When they don’t make it they end up at 16 not playing at all. We are in the Saints region. 

Edited by MarkyMark - 18 Sep 2024 at 07:44
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote The Blues Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 08:13
Championship clubs 'left out in the cold' by PGP deal https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/c8rddml27pko
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rugbychris Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 08:21
Originally posted by MarkyMark MarkyMark wrote:

As a coach from U7 to colts, this is my experience of the “pathway”. You get an invite to a local tournament, academy coaches are there with their clip boards. They watch you for 10-20 mins then pick players which they like (on one occasion a lad was picked having never played rugby, it was his first game for us). They then go to a few training sessions. The parents though, get their heads turned, blame the club that they are not good enough, which in turn means they leave the smaller clubs and all the kids end up in a few “big” colts teams whilst a lot fold. When they don’t make it they end up at 16 not playing at all. We are in the Saints region. 

Amen to that
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 08:30

Saints get it right, IMO, but it is harsh. 

They start at over 100 boys and trim to a handful at the end. And those handful aren't always in the starting 100. (T Freeman was dropped from Leicester academy)


Edited by Paul10 - 18 Sep 2024 at 08:48
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Paul10 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 08:59
Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Championship clubs 'left out in the cold' by PGP deal https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/c8rddml27pko

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Camquin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 12:15
Especially as the money is channelled through Premiership Rugby, so nearly a quarter leaks out to CVC.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote knightandday Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 13:09
Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Championship clubs 'left out in the cold' by PGP deal https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/c8rddml27pko

Crazy

What amazes me is that anyone is surprised by this deal. It’s been obvious for a few years that the plan is to starve the Championship of funds so more teams turn to DR and other links to Premiership Clubs to survive, eventually it will lead to a league of mainly ‘A’ teams with a couple of well backed clubs playing against, when necessary, a mainly Premiership team to secure the ‘A’ team or keep the ‘Club’ in its place. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote gerg_861 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18 Sep 2024 at 15:21
Originally posted by knightandday knightandday wrote:

Originally posted by Paul10 Paul10 wrote:

Originally posted by The Blues The Blues wrote:

Championship clubs 'left out in the cold' by PGP deal https://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/articles/c8rddml27pko

Crazy

What amazes me is that anyone is surprised by this deal. It’s been obvious for a few years that the plan is to starve the Championship of funds so more teams turn to DR and other links to Premiership Clubs to survive, eventually it will lead to a league of mainly ‘A’ teams with a couple of well backed clubs playing against, when necessary, a mainly Premiership team to secure the ‘A’ team or keep the ‘Club’ in its place. 

Agreed  the champ has little/no negotiation power. I would give them nothing in PRL's place, and the RFU has been captured by people who are only interested in Twickenham revenue, and not by the health of Rugby in general.
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Welcome to the new season, welcome to the same sh*t from our friends at the Allianz Stadium.

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Have a look at Bristol Crusaders or Dings Bears last Saturday in N1 defo 8 Bears in Dings squad but reports that it could be up to 12. So it’s happening
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote FHLH Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19 Sep 2024 at 01:50
Originally posted by MarkyMark MarkyMark wrote:

We are in the Saints region. 

As a parent, thus was my experience. U15 ended up disillusioned and played American Football at Uni, then nothing
 Now back aged 40 as a coach. 

Saints looked after one thing, Saints. 
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