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Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=19427 Printed Date: 18 Nov 2024 at 05:44 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Worcester & WaspsPosted By: Bigbluepip
Subject: Worcester & Wasps
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 15:30
Can anyone explain what’s happening with these next season?
As I see it, Worcester will be in our league, not sure why as teams previously going into admin got booted so far down they had to get changed in car parks before the game (ahhhh..... the good old days).
As for Wasps, I have no idea, have they ceased to exist, if a buyer has been found, where will they be next year.
I’d ask someone in the RFU, but I think I have more idea of what’s happening than they do .
I appreciate the picture is still very fuzzy, but does anyone know, or is it all still conjecture.
------------- I want you all to line up in a circle and pair up in three's alphabetically by height.
Replies: Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 15:53
They are in limbo.
If a phoenix club can be formed, then they are permitted to take up a place in the Championship.
If not, the professional teams cease to exist.
A phoenix club must pay rugby creditors within 28 days of being granted a licence to play in a league.
It must have the rights to use the usual home ground of the insolvent club for at least three years.
The RFU will require a bond and may also require personal financial guarantees from the directors.
This is all in Appendix 2 or regulation 5.
But this is the RFU, we know they will bend the rules. SO expect Wasps to be permitted to play at Twyford Avenue.
Obviously, the old plan was for a 14 team Premiership, so if we are naive we should expect three sides to be promoted from the Championship.
But now everyone is talking about plans for a 10 team Premiership - which apparently have been in place so several months.
We have no idea how many sides will play in the Championship, do I hear 10, 12,14 16?
Or what funding would be in place.
Wasps and Worcester will be hoping for more than £150k.
If the Premiership does reduce to 10, the relegated side would presumably retain their P-shares for a season. Worcester's and Wasps' shares, however, should be sold to PRL Investors Ltd, and the funds used to repay some of their debts.
So we do not know if any Championship clubs might be relegated, or if any Nat 1 club would be promoted..
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 15:56
No. No one can.
Unless of course they are mystic meg.
The RFU has issued very clear statements as to what would happen if nothing changes. If things change they will issue new statements.
We should have some idea in about 4-5 months.
Posted By: *Stalwart
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 15:59
As usual the Championship is treated with complete contempt by the powers that be. 4-5 months is probably optimistic Old Nick - probably more likely sometime in the summer!
------------- *Stalwart
Posted By: Bigbluepip
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 16:15
Thanks Camquin, I’ll just take the view that with the RFU involved and their magic 8 ball 🎱 will be repeatedly consulted, all outcomes are still possible.
------------- I want you all to line up in a circle and pair up in three's alphabetically by height.
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 16:29
Worcester's
administrators Begbies Traynor have chosen former Warriors chief
executive Jim O'Toole's consortium as their preferred bidders for the
relegated Premiership club.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: Bigbluepip
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 18:23
Looks like we’ll have both in the Championship next season.
So, if 2 come down, that’ll make the end of season “Is anyone going up/coming up/everyone as you were” discussion” interesting.
------------- I want you all to line up in a circle and pair up in three's alphabetically by height.
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 20:41
Lots of talk about 2 x 10-team divisions, but next season - really? As things stand, with Wuss + Wasps looking like they may be able to start next season in Champ, the 2 x 10 format would involve some form of cull of 5 level 2 teams in just 6 months' time - that would be pretty drastic.
The recent (Oct 17th) update [ https://www.championshiprugby.co.uk/news/article/rfu-statement-competition-update" rel="nofollow - LINK ] from HQ said planning for next season involved a Championship from 12-14 teams.
Does anyone expect there to be more than 12 teams in the Prem next season? I'd be very surprised if there were. And 10 would be quite drastic too, involving at least one of current 11 being relegated, or two if a Champ club was allowed up.
And I guess it can't be guaranteed that the number of Prem casualties won't rise above two.
A lot more Qs than As at this point, that's for sure...
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 30 Oct 2022 at 20:59
I don't think we will see any major changes to the Premiership or the Championship* until the existing Premiership deal runs out in 2024. This gives time for everyone concerned to work out a format that is financially affordable.
* bar next season going from 12 to 14 teams to include Worcester and Wasps.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 09:19
I think we will see a reborn Worcester at Sixways, though I think it will take the administrator a while to sort everything out.
However, the Worcester fans over on ComeOnYouWarriors are worried it is all about the property and not enough about the rugby side, They would have preferred the Steve Diamond bid.
And over on Huckleberryly PearenWasps there is a large, anywhere but Coventry, group.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 09:33
Richard Lowther wrote:
I don't think we will see any major changes to the Premiership or the Championship* until the existing Premiership deal runs out in 2024. This gives time for everyone concerned to work out a format that is financially affordable.
* bar next season going from 12 to 14 teams to include Worcester and Wasps.
So - just checking how this could play out - to current 12 in Champ, you add Wuss + Wasps to get 14? But also a promoted team from Nat 1 to make 15? But then 'lose' a promoted club to Prem (if they meet criteria), giving Prem 12, if no-one comes down, and Champ 14?
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 09:48
islander wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
I don't think we will see any major changes to the Premiership or the Championship* until the existing Premiership deal runs out in 2024. This gives time for everyone concerned to work out a format that is financially affordable.
* bar next season going from 12 to 14 teams to include Worcester and Wasps.
So - just checking how this could play out - to current 12 in Champ, you add Wuss + Wasps to get 14? But also a promoted team from Nat 1 to make 15? But then 'lose' a promoted club to Prem (if they meet criteria), giving Prem 12, if no-one comes down, and Champ 14?
I think that's how most people expect it to work out. But a worst case scenario - the winners of the Champ find out in April that they have been refused entry to the Prem, and suddenly you're looking at two teams relegated, with the consequential knock-on effect all the way down the pyramid.
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 09:50
There is talk of reducing the Premiership to 10,
So that would have three teams coming down Worcester, Wasps and one more, possibly Newcastle.
The options would be a 10 team Championship with a joint cup, with funding coming from three sets of P calls and a new sponsor and TV deal, all divided equally - but I think that unlikely.
It would also mean 5 down, possibly with Nat 1 expanded to 16. So six down three up below it.
So probably a 14 team Championship.
Unfortunately, that would mean no promotion this season - unless London Scottish do go North, in which case there might be scope for one up from National 1.
Or 16 with Scottish reprieved and one up from National One.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 09:53
Camquin wrote:
There is talk of reducing the Premiership to 10,
So that would have three teams coming down Worcester, Wasps and one more, possibly Newcastle.
The options would be a 10 team Championship with a joint cup, with funding coming from three sets of P calls and a new sponsor and TV deal, all divided equally - but I think that unlikely.
It would also mean 5 down, possibly with Nat 1 expanded to 16. So six down three up below it.
So probably a 14 team Championship.
Unfortunately, that would mean no promotion this season - unless London Scottish do go North, in which case there might be scope for one up from National 1.
Or 16 with Scottish reprieved and one up from National One.
We know there's talk of Prem reduction CQ, but would that happen by next summer? I tend to agree with Richard L - that the tinkering with league sizes in top 2 tiers won't be drastic this side of 2024.
Posted By: Cov kid 42
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 12:13
With the CBS Arena almost certainly going into administration, where I ask will Wasps play next season in the Championship, has anyone any thoughts on that ?
------------- John Butler
Posted By: oldman
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 12:47
Ground shade with Cov at the Butts.
------------- oldman
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 13:17
To be a phoenix entity, they need to use the usual ground of the club that went into administration.
This is there to prevent someone from buying a bankrupt club and starting up somewhere else.
If they cannot acquire the lease, they have no right to a place in the Championship.
And the money men want the arena, despite what Steve Diamond said, that sort of investment is all about the property deals.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 15:13
Cov kid 42 wrote:
With the CBS Arena almost certainly going into administration, where I ask will Wasps play next season in the Championship, has anyone any thoughts on that ?
I jokingly suggested Alexander Stadium on the other thread.
I can see strings being pulled to allow them to play back in their 'spiritual' home of London - but Twycross Avenue, home of Wasps FC wouldn't meet the Premiership criteria, so they would be looking for a ground share with a football club who did. Now how could such a plan go wrong?....
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 15:19
Maybe a merger with Ealing? ......Ealing Wasps? Kills two birds with one stone and is 3.5 miles from Wasps original home.
------------- Crouch, Bind, Tweet!
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 15:23
10 team Championship
Currently we get 11 home league fixtures and 3 cup matches.
Under a 10 teams structure , 9 home league fixtures and a reformatted cup competition.
I don’t get it
------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused.
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 15:34
Heard on the grapevine - Ealing are eyeing up Wycombe as a venue for Premiership rugby
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 15:45
PiffPaff wrote:
Maybe a merger with Ealing? ......Ealing Wasps? Kills two birds with one stone and is 3.5 miles from Wasps original home.
What on Earth have Ealing done to deserve that?
Posted By: Whistle watcher
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 16:25
I heard a conversation on Saturday which suggested (again) that Wasps and Worcester may not be the only two to have financial issues this season, and that there may indeed be two more clubs with similar issues.
8 team prem and 16 team Champ, anyone?? :-)
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 16:32
Whistle watcher wrote:
I heard a conversation on Saturday which suggested (again) that Wasps and Worcester may not be the only two to have financial issues this season, and that there may indeed be two more clubs with similar issues.
8 team prem and 16 team Champ, anyone?? :-)
It will be interesting to see if either or both of Worcester and Wasps win their argument around Covid and the P share.
If they do other clubs could follow suite in claiming insolvency and then prepack without debts and still hold onto the magical P share.
Cynic, moi?
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 18:13
Would the P share be designated an asset .. of value and be sold off to pay their debts ?.
------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 18:14
Auction off the P shares any takers ......highest bidder.
------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 18:28
You cannot do that under the articles of association.
The league, or rather PRL Investors Ltd. itself, buys them back.
I think the suggestion for ten team leagues was a 20 team Prem/Champ Cup
The alternative would be to add a third European tier - if you were to do that, I would move Euro Cup to May/June and play the third tier mid-week to get TV coverage. That way, you do not mix mid-week and weekend games.
Arranging that would take a lt of organization, which means you need to find someone able to find their elbow with both hands and a map.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 19:00
islander wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
I don't think we will see any major changes to the Premiership or the Championship* until the existing Premiership deal runs out in 2024. This gives time for everyone concerned to work out a format that is financially affordable.
* bar next season going from 12 to 14 teams to include Worcester and Wasps.
So - just checking how this could play out - to current 12 in Champ, you add Wuss + Wasps to get 14? But also a promoted team from Nat 1 to make 15? But then 'lose' a promoted club to Prem (if they meet criteria), giving Prem 12, if no-one comes down, and Champ 14?
That sounds far to sensible, so unlikely to happen
------------- RAID ON
Posted By: pen 15
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 19:35
Better still wait until the Powers that be meet up and have a few free G&Ts then somebody will suggest something stupid and everyone can agree it's good for the game .
------------- is it stours year yet
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 31 Oct 2022 at 22:50
dropout22 wrote:
Heard on the grapevine - Ealing are eyeing up Wycombe as a venue for Premiership rugby
That would be quite a surprise and turnaround from what had been stated at the club previously.
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 06:57
gerg_861 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Heard on the grapevine - Ealing are eyeing up Wycombe as a venue for Premiership rugby
That would be quite a surprise and turnaround from what had been stated at the club previously.
Rumours......
Would Ealing be required to find a temporary ground? I don't think so - they have the space to develop the existing facilities - the only real issue I see is access to the ground, and I am not sure that is as big a problem as some have previously alluded to. Granted the road down to the ground is challenging (what will the residents have to say - although allegedly Mr Gooley owns a number of houses down that road (? is this true?) and would he be able to influence objections if any were raised?
Looking at their performance to date Ealing are on a run to take the crown and earn promotion this season, I just hope that some dodgy ruling doesn't obstruct them again this season.
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 09:50
castleparknight wrote:
gerg_861 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Heard on the grapevine - Ealing are eyeing up Wycombe as a venue for Premiership rugby
That would be quite a surprise and turnaround from what had been stated at the club previously.
Rumours......
Would Ealing be required to find a temporary ground? I don't think so - they have the space to develop the existing facilities - the only real issue I see is access to the ground, and I am not sure that is as big a problem as some have previously alluded to. Granted the road down to the ground is challenging (what will the residents have to say - although allegedly Mr Gooley owns a number of houses down that road (? is this true?) and would he be able to influence objections if any were raised?
Looking at their performance to date Ealing are on a run to take the crown and earn promotion this season, I just hope that some dodgy ruling doesn't obstruct them again this season.
It depends if Vallis Way has all the required planning permission in place to meet the new hurdles (sorry minimum standards). If not, then an alternative ground already meeting those standards makes sense and gives Ealing time to develop Vallis Way, whilst they are playing in the Premiership.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 10:00
castleparknight wrote:
gerg_861 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Heard on the grapevine - Ealing are eyeing up Wycombe as a venue for Premiership rugby
That would be quite a surprise and turnaround from what had been stated at the club previously.
Rumours......
Would Ealing be required to find a temporary ground? I don't think so - they have the space to develop the existing facilities - the only real issue I see is access to the ground, and I am not sure that is as big a problem as some have previously alluded to. Granted the road down to the ground is challenging (what will the residents have to say - although allegedly Mr Gooley owns a number of houses down that road (? is this true?) and would he be able to influence objections if any were raised?
Looking at their performance to date Ealing are on a run to take the crown and earn promotion this season, I just hope that some dodgy ruling doesn't obstruct them again this season.
True or not (no idea), if Gooley has tenants in those houses, then the protest or otherwise lies with them, not him.
I assume he wouldn't just be sitting on empty properties, would he? Or prepared to summarily throw tenants out?
-------------
Our City, Our Club
Posted By: oneagainstthehead
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 11:37
Kimbo wrote:
castleparknight wrote:
gerg_861 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Heard on the grapevine - Ealing are eyeing up Wycombe as a venue for Premiership rugby
That would be quite a surprise and turnaround from what had been stated at the club previously.
Rumours......
Would Ealing be required to find a temporary ground? I don't think so - they have the space to develop the existing facilities - the only real issue I see is access to the ground, and I am not sure that is as big a problem as some have previously alluded to. Granted the road down to the ground is challenging (what will the residents have to say - although allegedly Mr Gooley owns a number of houses down that road (? is this true?) and would he be able to influence objections if any were raised?
Looking at their performance to date Ealing are on a run to take the crown and earn promotion this season, I just hope that some dodgy ruling doesn't obstruct them again this season.
True or not (no idea), if Gooley has tenants in those houses, then the protest or otherwise lies with them, not him.
I assume he wouldn't just be sitting on empty properties, would he? Or prepared to summarily throw tenants out?
As I understand it, the tenants are all contracted players at the club - can’t see many objections coming from that quarter!
------------- Speak softly, but carry a big stick.
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 11:58
castleparknight wrote:
Looking at their performance to date Ealing are on a run to take the crown and earn promotion this season, I just hope that some dodgy ruling doesn't obstruct them again this season.
Ealing have a very difficult set of fixtures in April with three away games to Blues, Jersey & Donny. Donny is hitting great form and Jersey should finish strongly when Toby Venner is available to play behind their forwards so despite their great start, I expect Ealing will have to work for promotion and if they do finish in top spot, I also hope they are not obstructed again. They deserve their chance imo.
------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 13:02
corporalcarrot wrote:
castleparknight wrote:
Looking at their performance to date Ealing are on a run to take the crown and earn promotion this season, I just hope that some dodgy ruling doesn't obstruct them again this season.
Ealing have a very difficult set of fixtures in April with three away games to Blues, Jersey & Donny. Donny is hitting great form and Jersey should finish strongly when Toby Venner is available to play behind their forwards so despite their great start, I expect Ealing will have to work for promotion and if they do finish in top spot, I also hope they are not obstructed again. They deserve their chance imo.
Couldn't agree more CC
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 14:47
Richard Lowther wrote:
castleparknight wrote:
gerg_861 wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
Heard on the grapevine - Ealing are eyeing up Wycombe as a venue for Premiership rugby
That would be quite a surprise and turnaround from what had been stated at the club previously.
Rumours......
Would Ealing be required to find a temporary ground? I don't think so - they have the space to develop the existing facilities - the only real issue I see is access to the ground, and I am not sure that is as big a problem as some have previously alluded to. Granted the road down to the ground is challenging (what will the residents have to say - although allegedly Mr Gooley owns a number of houses down that road (? is this true?) and would he be able to influence objections if any were raised?
Looking at their performance to date Ealing are on a run to take the crown and earn promotion this season, I just hope that some dodgy ruling doesn't obstruct them again this season.
He owns a number of houses on the fringes , of which is offered to players and staff as part of their contract offers, of which they pay a minimal amount of rent for.
It depends if Vallis Way has all the required planning permission in place to meet the new hurdles (sorry minimum standards). If not, then an alternative ground already meeting those standards makes sense and gives Ealing time to develop Vallis Way, whilst they are playing in the Premiership.
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 01 Nov 2022 at 15:02
Provided the below market rent is declared as a benefit in kind, this is perfectly reasonable.
We know Worcester were providing housing for their academy players, until they were evicted when the company failed to meet the mortgage payments.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 11:47
Update/speculation (delete as applicable) on the 'W-W' situation...
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 12:42
Any entity at Sixways looking to enter the Championship, would need to be a phoenix for Worcester, not Wasps.
If a new club were to form, it would need to join Worcester CB - and I would hope that they would listen to their existing members.
And surely Wasps Fc would need to approve any use of the name.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 13:14
So Wasps main problem was that they moved 100 miles from London, where their main fan base is, to Coventry where it isn’t. That didn’t work. So now they want to mover another 30 miles further from London to try and win over/steal another clubs fans…… are they barking mad or what?
Put it this way. Should Jersey and Guernsey suffer the same fate (god forbid) and Guernsey decided to relocate to Jersey. How many locals do you think would turn out to watch them?…. I would suggest single figures and that would only be because someone is bound to take a wrong turn and go to the rugby instead of the bowling alley in error!!
Crazy suggestion from a desperate Wasps contingent
------------- Tackle Low!!!!!
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 29 Nov 2022 at 13:30
These are Wasps legends - they are all suffering brain damage from cncussion.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 08:56
The above remark is in very poor taste; is it meant to be amusing?
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 30 Nov 2022 at 08:57
Latest from Worcester - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63800190" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63800190
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 14:44
Never sure whether to post in Champ or Clubhouse Chat - going for former as Champ is most affected (altho' will also have knock-on impact lower down). Latest from Telegraph...
Worcester Warriors face being refused entry to next season’s Championship
Wasps set to be allowed into second tier as RFU and Warriors' prospective new owners fail to agree terms of rescue deal
By Ben Rumsby 15 December 2022 • 1:10pm
Worcester Warriors are on the brink of being refused entry to next season’s Championship, with their prospective new owners and the Rugby Football Union at loggerheads over a rescue deal for the stricken club.
Telegraph Sport can also reveal that Wasps, thrown out of the Premiership as well after being plunged into administration, are close to being allowed to re-enter the English rugby pyramid in the second tier following their own takeover.
But, unless there is a dramatic U-turn, the RFU’s board will meet on Friday to rubber-stamp a recommendation by its Club Financial Viability Group (CFVG) not to permit Worcester to join them.
That follows what it can be revealed is an on-going row between Warriors’ prospective new owners, Atlas Worcester Warriors Rugby Club Ltd, and the RFU over strict conditions the latter had been seeking to impose on their rescue deal.
Telegraph Sport has been told the CFVG was not satisfied the information provided by the buyers, in particular relating to their financial position, demonstrated their ability to continue to fund the club and to deliver on their business plan, which includes significant development at the Sixways site.
The conditions imposed on the deal included an RFU veto over the disposal of land around the stadium, swift payment of rugby creditors, commitments to a women’s team and other key governance conditions.
Atlas, fronted by former Worcester chief executive Jim O’Toole and bankrolled by money from the United States, are said to be furious at the conditions being imposed and to have threatened legal action over any refusal to allow their entry into the Championship.
They were said to be committed to proceeding with the takeover of WRFC Trading Limited regardless, which would mean they would own the club and its assets but have no league to play in.
The approval of Wasps’ takeover was said to have been more straightforward, with the club having lost its own stadium, the Coventry Building Society Arena, when they were plunged into administration.
The ground was bought by Mike Ashley’s Frasers Group and the club have been in negotiations to become a tenant there.
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 15:59
Response from (Atlas) Worcester Warriors - afraid it's not that easy to read...
Atlas Worcester Warriors RFC Limited are now actively progressing with the Administrators the acquisition of the land, stadium, and club assets of WRFC Trading in Administration. We do not see any major commercial or legal issues arising and we will now rapidly progress the transaction with the Administrators. We would like to thank Julie Palmer and her team for a positive and collaborative approach with what is an extremely complex process.
Notwithstanding the fact that we are moving forward with the transaction, it has become apparent to us that despite producing detailed financial evidence to the RFU (the RFU have not required any further financial information since last Friday 9th December) and having received clear indications that the RFU were satisfied on the financial due-diligence aspects of Atlas insofar as they proceeded to issue a draft Agreement to Atlas, the RFU are now seeking to impose onerous operational conditions, commercial restrictions and barriers that would prevent our admittance to and participation in the RFU Championship for the 2023/24 season and seeking to rely on a lack of "financial due-diligence", which in our view is patently untrue. We would invite the select committee currently investigating this process to have access to all of our correspondence with the RFU relating to
this matter and we will happily provide evidence and oral testimony for the select committee regarding the steps that the RFU have taken in this matter.
Since entering into exclusivity with the Administrators, we have sought to work collaboratively with the RFU with a view to Worcester Warriors re-entering the Championship for the 2023/24 season. Unfortunately, it has not been possible to reach a market or institutionally acceptable, commercially viable proposition with the RFU. The position being taken by the RFU gives, in our view, too much control and oversight to the RFU and such control and oversight is over and above what we consider is reasonable and appropriate in the circumstances.
Unfortunately, in our view, the RFU are currently refusing to accept our reasonable and sustainable position and the RFU are instead seeking, in our view, to apply stringent oversights and conditions on us which are disproportionate, and contain the following onerous terms:
⚫ obligations that Atlas are in Special Measures (conditions that apply to insolvent clubs under the RFU regulations). This is illogical in circumstances where we are a fully funded new unconnected entity to the previous club.
We have provided a sustainable business plan to the RFU and provided a high level of financial due diligence to evidence our ability to meet our obligations both on and off the Rugby field;
⚫ conditions that give a non-governmental sporting body approval right over our strategic business plan, material contracts and the ability to raise, secure and use funding whether this relates to our Rugby commercial
activities or otherwise; and ⚫ extensive information rights, observational rights and access rights to board meetings and information, even when such information does not relate to Rugby matters. (A point we have been willing to accept on an observation only basis).
The above headline issues are provisions that are not only operationally restrictive, but they are oppressive and raise the spectre of shadow directorship on the part of the RFU. The above obligations in particular points 1 and 2 would make simple operational tasks extremely difficult and burdensome for us to operate a Championship rugby team and a Women's Allianz Premiership team.
We appreciate that the RFU are now seeking to scrutinise the position of new owners, as is their obligation to do so. However, in our view it is unacceptable to punish those looking to satisfy creditors, community, fans and staff for the mistakes of others in circumstances where we have evidenced to the RFU a strong management team, a detailed business plan and evidence of funding and sustainability.
Unfortunately, for Rugby to be viable at Worcester, we cannot accept terms that are excessive, unreasonable, and unworkable and which would hinder any commercial business that is needed to support elite Men's and
Women's rugby.
As a result, should the RFU not find the flexibility to remove the over-onerous terms they are seeking to impose on Atlas, we will have no alternative but to conclude the deal with Begbies without the approval of the RFU and without returning elite-level Rugby to Worcester.
To Worcester fans and commercial partners, we repeat our commitment to returning elite Men's and Women's rugby to Worcester and having this at the forefront of our business. We hope that the RFU take a commercial and less onerous approach going forward and will work with us to seek a pragmatic, commercial and sensible solution that works for all parties.
Atlas Worcester Warriors RFC Consortium
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 15 Dec 2022 at 21:34
For me the key comment is
This is illogical in circumstances where we are a fully funded new unconnected entity to the previous club.
So an admittance they are a new club who should start from the bottom unless they are willing and able to pay the Rugby debts as a phoenix entity, and no one seems to have seen evidence they can fulfil this duty.
Some will moan the RFU are putting up obstacles but are they the same people who complained the RFU didn't do due diligence on the previous owners who got them into this mess in the first place.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 12:11
Richard Lowther wrote:
For me the key comment is
This is illogical in circumstances where we are a fully funded new unconnected entity to the previous club.
So an admittance they are a new club who should start from the bottom unless they are willing and able to pay the Rugby debts as a phoenix entity, and no one seems to have seen evidence they can fulfil this duty.
Some will moan the RFU are putting up obstacles but are they the same people who complained the RFU didn't do due diligence on the previous owners who got them into this mess in the first place.
Willing and able to pay ALL debts please Richard.
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 13:41
Interesting that the Wasps acceptance ticks the financial boxes, but does not include agreement on a venue - maybe this is the next stage.
It now explains the tantrum posting from Atlas, with regard to Worcester.
Posted By: ParkBench
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 14:14
The Atlas statement on Thursday that if the RFU did not change its stance, they would look to conclude a deal "without the approval of the RFU and without returning elite level rugby to Worcester" was clearly a shot across the RFU's bows but they haven't budged.
Presumably the administrators overriding purpose is to obtain the best return for the creditors, not whether or not the company (the rugby club) can be restored to operation at the highest level on offer by the governing body.
Diamond seems to have already responded that he's still in the hunt. It remains to be seen if the Atlas statement was a final bluff or if they are committed to a business opportunity in Worcester.
For once I can see the RFU's side in that if it all went t*** up a while down the road they would be in an indefensible position in front of the DCMS. That said they've let Wasps put in a men's team only option apparently without comment or opposition. I know the women's team are operating out of the amateur club's Acton site but it does shout out the wrong message from the governing body.
Posted By: Brizzer
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 14:16
Interesting that the RFU have issues with Sixways potentially being developed, thus Wuss may not have a permanent home (which I totally get), but are happy with Wasps who are a nomad club and do not have a home…. Strange don’t you think?
------------- Tackle Low!!!!!
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 14:20
WEvans wrote:
Richard Lowther wrote:
For me the key comment is
This is illogical in circumstances where we are a fully funded new unconnected entity to the previous club.
So an admittance they are a new club who should start from the bottom unless they are willing and able to pay the Rugby debts as a phoenix entity, and no one seems to have seen evidence they can fulfil this duty.
Some will moan the RFU are putting up obstacles but are they the same people who complained the RFU didn't do due diligence on the previous owners who got them into this mess in the first place.
Willing and able to pay ALL debts please Richard.
Yes I accept your point but that is different to the RFU's considerations.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 14:24
Brizzer wrote:
Interesting that the RFU have issues with Sixways potentially being developed, thus Wuss may not have a permanent home (which I totally get), but are happy with Wasps who are a nomad club and do not have a home…. Strange don’t you think?
Totally.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 14:27
The RFU statement regarding Worcester's preferred bidders finances is quite cutting. There has been lots of speculation around the finances of the consortium and it would appear that the consortium has done nothing to dispell this and can only blame themselves for the RFU's decision.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: ParkBench
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 15:11
Wasps have announced that they will be remaining at a Midlands venue but won’t confirm which one yet.
Good news for Wasps fans. I still don’t get the starting in 2nd tier that the RFU offered them and not previous clubs but that’s for the RFU to explain.
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 15:29
Telegraph reporting that it's Damson Park, Solihull. I thought a criteria of the phoenix entity being allowed to play in the Championship was that they remain at the same home ground?
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 15:51
Absolutely correct but conveniently ignored because it suits!
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 15:51
Mark W-J wrote:
Telegraph reporting that it's Damson Park, Solihull. I thought a criteria of the phoenix entity being allowed to play in the Championship was that they remain at the same home ground?
It was
------------- RAID ON
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 16:06
Which is where Birmingham used to play.
How close is that to Moseley or Bournville?
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 16:20
Mark W-J wrote:
Telegraph reporting that it's Damson Park, Solihull. I thought a criteria of the phoenix entity being allowed to play in the Championship was that they remain at the same home ground?
Interestingly Wikipedia gives the capacity at 5500.
Remind me what the Premiership ground criteria capacity was reduced to?
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards
Remember Wakefield RFC
Posted By: kingsheathlad
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 16:20
Birmingham Bees play at Portway. Before the tempory demise they played at Damson Parkway which is now the home of Solihull Moors FC I think. The other club nearby is in Old Damson Lane home of Birmingham Exiles RFC but that has no stand, the former has a small stand.
I would say approximately 5 miles from Moseley's ground and may be 10 approximately from Bournville, but I may need to be corrected.
------------- Cauliflower ear.
Posted By: Dagfish
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 17:11
Damson Park always has been the home of Solihull Moors FC (Damson Park is the ground, Damson Parkway the road where it is located, right next to the Land Rover works). Birmingham & Solihull Bees shared the ground with them for a couple of years before moving back to Portway. The Telegraph are reporting another groundshare arrangement with the football club.
According to Google ...
Moseley is 7 miles / 25 mins by car.
Bournville is 11 miles / 45 mins.
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 17:25
Bees moved back to Portway after being relegated from the Championship. Parking there is awful. I can't see it suiting Wasps at all.
------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group"
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 17:33
I thought the premiership was 5,000 all seated - but I could be imagining that.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 17:43
Regarding all creditors of Wasps, are they getting their money?
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 17:48
Why would it need parking? They don't have supporters or a team at present.
They would also be in breach of the regulations for a phoenix club by playing there. Solihull is not part of Coventry.
The distance from Moseley seems irrelevant. Birmingham Moseley play at Billedley Common which is 8 miles away. For comparison the BPA is 13 miles away.
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 18:42
"Telegraph Sport has been told the Rugby Football Union has agreed to waive a regulation that would have forced Wasps to remain in Coventry for three years given they do not own or control their own ground."
Quelle surprise.
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 18:46
Bent!
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 18:54
Stinks, should have followed LW all the way down
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 19:00
KnightsBoy wrote:
Stinks, should have followed LW all the way down
Agreed
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 19:21
Mark W-J wrote:
"Telegraph Sport has been told the Rugby Football Union has agreed to waive a regulation that would have forced Wasps to remain in Coventry for three years given they do not own or control their own ground."
Quelle surprise.
Why am I not surprised it would be rigged?
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 19:55
Which is why we need a Special General Meeting to discuss the motion
The meeting has no confidence in the CEO.
Who is in - DM me.
------------- Sweeney Delenda Est
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 16 Dec 2022 at 21:12
castleparknight wrote:
KnightsBoy wrote:
Stinks, should have followed LW all the way down
Agreed
I disagree no one gains by this and the game loses thousands of brilliant supporters. The RFU got it wrong with London Welsh who are a brilliant rugby club and should avoid compounding the error.
------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 11:22
corporalcarrot wrote:
castleparknight wrote:
KnightsBoy wrote:
Stinks, should have followed LW all the way down
Agreed
I disagree no one gains by this and the game loses thousands of brilliant supporters. The RFU got it wrong with London Welsh who are a brilliant rugby club and should avoid compounding the error.
I believe the outrage is more to do with lack of consistency with rulings - if LW got no leniency then neither should these clubs.
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 11:35
I thought it all comes down to if you pay the creditors or not. If you don’t you start from the bottom, if you do you go down one division. Not sure how much of each £ you need to pay them
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 11:39
I believe you may well be correct The Blues - will WASPS clear £95 million? Nope - perhaps a % of it but is that fair for all who lose out on that?
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny!
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 12:27
Just the 'rugby' creditors though.
What about the duped bondholders, The F&B suppliers, the breweries, Moseley Signs, and on and on?
It's just a nonsense that they're allowed to slope shoulders on this issue.
-------------
Our City, Our Club
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 12:53
castleparknight wrote:
corporalcarrot wrote:
castleparknight wrote:
KnightsBoy wrote:
Stinks, should have followed LW all the way down
Agreed
I disagree no one gains by this and the game loses thousands of brilliant supporters. The RFU got it wrong with London Welsh who are a brilliant rugby club and should avoid compounding the error.
I believe the outrage is more to do with lack of consistency with rulings - if LW got no leniency then neither should these clubs.
I try to visit ODP whenever Jersey have a match at RAG and its a huge shame that a club with all that history (and a great support base) isn't playing in the top few tiers of the game. IMO the directors & owners of Wuss & WASPs should be properly held to account but no one gains if those brilliantly supported clubs are relegated to the bottom of the pile. I see no merit in consistently making bad decisions. I would welcome them both into the Championship and promote Ealing & if necessary Donny or Pirates to replace them in the prem. After a season or two the natural order of things would probably revert but the thousands of supporters would still be around.
------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 13:24
Where else would you put them?
Is there space further down the leagues for an entry without penalising an otherwise promoted team.
There are 4 places:
Championship
Wasps Amateurs
Mid leagues if genuine space
Bottom of the pile
My favourite is filling a space if there is one without damaging a promoted club
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 13:45
After the way that Wasps have fleeced their fans and it seems the new owners will not be re paying them in full, I will be surprised if many will show up in Solihull to watch Brummijum Pests.
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 18:18
The Wasp and Worcester situation is farcical, they should be starting from the bottom. Where do Wasps think they are going to get any fans from ??? All they will achieve now is possibly taking a few Cov or Moseley supporters. I hope no one goes to watch them, they should return to London and see if they are welcome there!!!
------------- Run with it
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 18:45
Runitback wrote:
The Wasp and Worcester situation is farcical, they should be starting from the bottom. Where do Wasps think they are going to get any fans from ??? All they will achieve now is possibly taking a few Cov or Moseley supporters. I hope no one goes to watch them, they should return to London and see if they are welcome there!!!
It's sad to read this type of vitriol on a rugby forum.
------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD.
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 20:01
corporalcarrot wrote:
It's sad to read this type of vitriol on a rugby forum.
It's as much about the RFU and Premier Rugby as the irresponsible financial management of the clubs and the assumption by prospective buyers of preferential treatment
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 20:22
It’s not vitriol, just frustration of posters supporting two clubs in possible avoidance of their debts.
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 20:48
Where is all the debt going?
Until it’s paid they should be put at the bottom
Like Richmond, Welsh etc what gives these two the right to be different
They cannot be allowed to go in the Champ when there is still “rugby debts “ and HMRC left owing millions !
Joke RFU total joke!
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 20:49
Agreed RedTed and that these two clubs are being given preferential treatment (ignoring RFU stated rules and criteria) over the many who have suffered similar troubles before them. They should be starting again at the bottom like the rest of us would have to do. Believe me when I say the force is gathering (100 clubs only required) to trigger a call for an EGM and a vote of no confidence. They will soon be choking on their G+T's and Cucumber sandwiches...... And about time too, enough is enough!
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 21:00
Let’s go for it then
Everyone outside the Prem has had enough
The Champ has no direction and no funding
National 1 and below are left to fend for themselves
So let’s get it on
I think you will get 100 clubs before Santa comes down the chimney!
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 17 Dec 2022 at 22:15
Well I'm up for it! The only issue is how many posters on here actually reflect and represent the views of their clubs? There's only a few that I know for definite other than myself - Camquin, Halliford, OneForThe Ditch
to name but a few - there must be others, if so please make yourselves known!
We need to pool our thoughts and circulate all clubs outlining our proposals keeping it concise and reasonably brief (23 pages of pontification won't get much shrift at most clubs and will just get ignored or pushed to the bottom of the pending tray)
I will PM a few influential characters and see if we can get the ball rolling. If we do nothing apathy will prevail and rules and regulations which are meant to apply to us all will continue to be steamrollered over and ignored to suit RFU and Prem demands
Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 03:11
I advise a lawyer too, ideally someone with experience or connections to NGO, mutual societies and charities. To start with look at the structure and look at the relationships between the Primary stakeholders. This would include RFU as the governing body and the limited companies it has set up. Any information on commitments to the DCMS and Sport England should be included. Also in the PRA the new entities they created that I think look like thinly veiled liability shield/financial cutout. Clubs themselves are less important, but understanding their finances is really important, especially if charities are involved. Fifteen years ago it looked like there was a potential breach of arising from the actions of senior officers on how they are expected to consult and act reasonably in the interests of their stakeholders. Creating regulations for the management of the game falls to the RFU. While Wuss and Wasps are members the management committee, Board and Council should exercise judgement that is in the best interest of all stakeholders. Changing regs that have a material effect on other clubs such as those mooted around the leagues and that contravene the regulations already in place is clearly actionable.
Doing any of this though is a likely to be time consuming and expensive. This is something that protects those responsible from being held to account. A better way IMO is through the DCMS and Sport England initially. They made loans and grants that came with conditions. The quickest way to get folks to change tack is to place the spotlight on them in a determined and focused way. Put pressure on RFU Council Members to actually do their jobs - they are in effect Non- Executive Directors and they have specific duties. If they can’t understand the report and accounts, don’t understand the governance obligations they have then they need to either get help so they do understand or step down. Rugby Clubs across the land have plenty of professional people working in these areas and our representatives only have to ask for some advice and guidance from them. Collective action and transparency is key though as is the willingness to rock the boat really hard. The alternative is that the game continues on a trajectory that splits the whole structure of the game into pieces that’ll be easier to keep in their place will an Elite runs our game into the ground.
------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes!
Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 10:38
I can speak for my club. The advantage that the RFU have and rely upon is that many clubs (like mine) are very short on volunteers and all our focus is on goes to organising and running our own club.
The RFU is desperately unfit for the modern game. It should be split in two. A focus on the pro game and a focus on the amateur game. The two are miles apart from each other and require a totally different focus, with the professional game taking the vast majority of any day to day attention.
In the first instance we just need 100 clubs to call an EGM. I think that would initially be a shock to the RFU system. Quite newsworthy too. The BBC in particular love kicking English rugby so I am sure they would love to air any grievances.
Start with the 100. Have a properly defined list of glaring RFU incompetence and grow the number of clubs through press and direct contact throughout the season.
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 15:30
rugbychris wrote:
The RFU is desperately unfit for the modern game. It should be split in two. A focus on the pro game and a focus on the amateur game. The two are miles apart from each other and require a totally different focus, with the professional game taking the vast majority of any day to day attention.
Regrettably I think you are right.
It's (just) a question of how many clubs are in the professional tier - two leagues of 12 (11 + 12 + 1 promoted). Two differential levels of funding - but enough to make promotion from level 2 feasible [but who has oversight?]
That leaves National 1 as the de facto pinnacle for mortals. Too much for Christmas but worth a BBC briefing!
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 20:00
Wasps will fail . . . they have no heritage at their latest venue, they will get no supporters and they will incur huge losses in a vain attempt to get back to the Premiership! I wish them no luck at all . . . Worcester at least have some support . . but both should start from the bottom again!
------------- Run with it
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 20:01
PS the RFU has no understanding of how to run the game . . time for a significant change
------------- Run with it
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 18 Dec 2022 at 22:55
Runitback wrote:
Wasps will fail . . . they have no heritage at their latest venue, they will get no supporters and they will incur huge losses in a vain attempt to get back to the Premiership! I wish them no luck at all . . . Worcester at least have some support . . but both should start from the bottom again!
Though that's the problem, they can do a London Welsh and just consume their amateur clubs already in the leagues (Wasps FC and Worcester RFC) to skip ahead a few seasons.
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 10:26
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 10:28
"They don't pass the test" Nick Johnston, CEO of Coventry Rugby Club responds to Wasps return to the Championship.
Wasps have been given approval to play in the Championship, if they adhere to a number of conditions. The club was first suspended, then removed from the Premiership after going into administration.
They've been given the green light to return to the Championship, the second tier of pro-rugby in England, after the RFU approved the sale of the collapsed club to a group headed by the Wasps Legends charity.
However it's rumoured the club will play at Solihull Moors ground and not the CBS Arena, although they'll play Cov at the Butts Park Arena at least once next season. So how's this going down with Coventry Rugby?
Phil Upton spoke to Nick Johnston, the CEO of the Butts Park club.
Release date:
-------------
Our City, Our Club
Posted By: dumbape
Date Posted: 19 Dec 2022 at 10:39
Phil Upton makes some really good points about the arrogance and lack of consistency at HQ.
------------- What a blessing it would be if we could open and shut our ears as easily as we open and shut our eyes!