Ampthill RFC
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Category: League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk
Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=20469
Printed Date: 02 Nov 2024 at 06:29 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ampthill RFC
Posted By: Cherub
Subject: Ampthill RFC
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 08:14
My love affair with Ampthill RFC is just about over. I joined the club as a player in 1971 and enjoyed 14 wonderful years there. I played for just about every team they had, served some time on their committee, and enjoyed the comradeship of the other players. As with most clubs, the banter was rife. I retired from playing in 1985 and immediately moved north to live in Yorkshire where I have followed their incredible rise through the leagues ever since. Since arriving in the Championship, they have gradually achieved a lower mid-table position, which is a magnificent achievement for such a small club. However, in my opinion, to survive in this incredibly troubled league, you need resources. And that is something the club do not have. Income, or the lack of income, from the RFU is well documented. And the increased attendances have just not happened. Getting 500-1,000 per home game is disappointing. As is the make up of the squad. Home grown players seem like an endangered species. And my perception is that putting together a matchday squad is getting harder and harder. There was only one pre-season game, and the makeup of this year’s squad was only announced after the season began. And each game it feels like a new signing is introduced and making his debut. How can you possibly build cohesion working like this. Since moving to Yorkshire I now watch the exploits of Wharfedale RFC. Sitting comfortably in National League Two North, the rugby on display is of a high standard, the squad is homegrown, and team selection is consistent. It is an enjoyable experience. I no longer have any close contacts within the club, but my perception is that Ampthill is a troubled club and they are not enjoying life in the Championship. And that makes me think that life in National One or below is a far better place to be.
------------- Always trying to stay bright-eyed and bushy-tailed.
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Replies:
Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 10:19
Hi Cherub. I'm local to Ampthill. Bletchley ex player and coach etc.
It looks to me like the big money has run out and so a new level or new money needs to be found.
It's been great watching Ampthill go up the leagues and your mini section continues to hoover up every rugby playing lad so the club is being built on sensible foundations too.
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Posted By: Stuartnottingham
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 13:07
The RFU probably don’t think there is a place for Ampthill in tier 2
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 13:29
Stuartnottingham wrote:
The RFU probably don’t think there is a place for Ampthill in tier 2 |
National One is where Community (affordable & member players) club rugby is played, Championship is a bit of a mess. Amps (and Caldy & Cambridge), know your place.
Article in TRP about virtues of the broken 3 straight back in, but not Jersey - maybe they've seen the light.
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 14:38
FHLH wrote:
Stuartnottingham wrote:
The RFU probably don’t think there is a place for Ampthill in tier 2 |
National One is where Community (affordable & member players) club rugby is played, Championship is a bit of a mess. Amps (and Caldy & Cambridge), know your place.
Article in TRP about virtues of the broken 3 straight back in, but not Jersey - maybe they've seen the light.
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I sense at least 3 Champ clubs where a significant proportion of supporters would rather be in Nat Leagues than where they are now...
I guess many supporters of Wasps, Worcester Warriors and London Irish would rather be in the Champ than where they are now, as they aren't anywhere right now (altho' Wasps and LI do have amateur sides).
Talking of amateur sides, that's where Jersey is focused now - an amateur side that has been promoted twice in last 2 years, and currently lie 2nd in Regional 1 SC (level 5). We are at the same level as 15 years ago, but the difference being that this is an entirely amateur set-up, with no current plans to pay anyone, whereas 15 years ago there was already a handful (4, IIRC) of professionals.
And the team a point above Jersey RFC in R1SC? That'll be London Welsh, also on the up after the Championship side went pop...
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Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 14:54
islander wrote:
FHLH wrote:
Stuartnottingham wrote:
The RFU probably don’t think there is a place for Ampthill in tier 2 |
National One is where Community (affordable & member players) club rugby is played, Championship is a bit of a mess. Amps (and Caldy & Cambridge), know your place.
Article in TRP about virtues of the broken 3 straight back in, but not Jersey - maybe they've seen the light.
|
I sense at least 3 Champ clubs where a significant proportion of supporters would rather be in Nat Leagues than where they are now...
I guess many supporters of Wasps, Worcester Warriors and London Irish would rather be in the Champ than where they are now, as they aren't anywhere right now (altho' Wasps and LI do have amateur sides).
Talking of amateur sides, that's where Jersey is focused now - an amateur side that has been promoted twice in last 2 years, and currently lie 2nd in Regional 1 SC (level 5). We are at the same level as 15 years ago, but the difference being that this is an entirely amateur set-up, with no current plans to pay anyone, whereas 15 years ago there was already a handful (4, IIRC) of professionals.
And the team a point above Jersey RFC in R1SC? That'll be London Welsh, also on the up after the Championship side went pop...
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If you believe Jersey RFC aren't paying players... you will believe Richmond were amateur in the Championship like they reported.
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 15:06
dropout22 wrote:
If you believe Jersey RFC aren't paying players... you will believe Richmond were amateur in the Championship like they reported. |
It's not a question of believing D22, I know how things stand here in Jersey and am happy to go on record with that...
Can't speak for Richmond, but as I recall they were open about paying players a match fee and/or win bonus during their time back in 2nd tier
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Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 20 Oct 2024 at 18:11
islander wrote:
FHLH wrote:
Stuartnottingham wrote:
The RFU probably don’t think there is a place for Ampthill in tier 2 |
National One is where Community (affordable & member players) club rugby is played, Championship is a bit of a mess. Amps (and Caldy & Cambridge), know your place.
Article in TRP about virtues of the broken 3 straight back in, but not Jersey - maybe they've seen the light.
|
I sense at least 3 Champ clubs where a significant proportion of supporters would rather be in Nat Leagues than where they are now...
I guess many supporters of Wasps, Worcester Warriors and London Irish would rather be in the Champ than where they are now, as they aren't anywhere right now (altho' Wasps and LI do have amateur sides).
Talking of amateur sides, that's where Jersey is focused now - an amateur side that has been promoted twice in last 2 years, and currently lie 2nd in Regional 1 SC (level 5). We are at the same level as 15 years ago, but the difference being that this is an entirely amateur set-up, with no current plans to pay anyone, whereas 15 years ago there was already a handful (4, IIRC) of professionals.
And the team a point above Jersey RFC in R1SC? That'll be London Welsh, also on the up after the Championship side went pop...
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Only 3
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Posted By: BFG1
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 07:58
All the Sarries lads play Saturday? Sell yourself to prem clubs seems to be what the mob have done
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Posted By: FlyingRuck
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 10:34
This is my personal opinion and not the view of the club I support but I do not like the term "Community rugby" or "Grassroots rugby" when associated with National One or indeed National Two. In my opinion it is a misnomer since the club's that make up these leagues are semi-professional rugby clubs mainly run on professional lines when you factor in coaching , medical provision, player payments, player welfare and development and general infrastructure. It would be wrong to conflate their status with that of the majority of clubs playing down the pyramid. It doesn't mean that clubs in the National Leagues don't care about or support the community aspect of rugby which is so vital. I think that the RFU are keen to apply and promote the term "Community" to the National Leagues because it suits their agenda...
------------- See you further on up the road
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Posted By: Baggins
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 10:38
Cherub wrote:
Home grown players seem like an endangered species. And my perception is that putting together a matchday squad is getting harder and harder. There was only one pre-season game, and the makeup of this year’s squad was only announced after the season began. And each game it feels like a new signing is introduced and making his debut. How can you possibly build cohesion working like this.
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I think bringing a squad together late and then moulding it in the first half of the season is just they way that the coach and DOR do things, I assume there is some rational for it and it is probably about keeping costs down and seeing who is available on the cheap when the dust has settled at the start of the season.
This means the first half of the season is scrappy and they come together second half and end up comfortably mid table.
It is a system that has worked in that way for a few seasons now and while it makes for unsatisfying viewing for fans until after Christmas it keeps the club viable as a mid table Championship side which is the limit of their ambitions.
I also think it is unfair to say they they don't bring through players, no club is going to bring through many players at this level because they are one of the top 20 clubs in the country and the standard is very high but they have a massive and thriving mini and youth set up that provides players for them and for many other clubs in the area and beyond.
------------- Propping up the board
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Posted By: Baggins
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 10:44
BFG1 wrote:
All the Sarries lads play Saturday? Sell yourself to prem clubs seems to be what the mob have done |
They have had strong links with Sarries from the start of their rise as Paul Turner came to Ampthill from having been a coach at Sarries.
It is not a new thing and a hatful of Sarries players have done seasons or more at Ampthill over the last decade or so.
So if they sold anything it was a long time ago and it is the the only way a club run on very modest means for this level can stay viable at this level.
Personally I wouldn't mind if they dropped a league or two I enjoyed it more when they stuffed everyone by 20-30 points but the club think they are a viable mid table Championship side based on this model and the evidence has born that out so far
------------- Propping up the board
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 11:19
I notice the hospitality is sold out for Ampthill's home game v Bath.
So the punters still go for it.
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 12:17
KnightsBoy wrote:
[QUOTE=islander]
Only 3 |
Note I said “at least 3”. I wasn’t including any club that may only have taken their place in the Champ within the past month or so, whose supporters might therefore not yet have made up their minds…
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 12:19
Paul10 wrote:
I notice the hospitality is sold out for Ampthill's home game v Bath.
So the punters still go for it. |
Guess that depends what proportion of the purchasers are from Bath…
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 12:22
islander wrote:
Paul10 wrote:
I notice the hospitality is sold out for Ampthill's home game v Bath.
So the punters still go for it. |
Guess that depends what proportion of the purchasers are from Bath… |
Very true.
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Posted By: Baggins
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 12:25
Paul10 wrote:
I notice the hospitality is sold out for Ampthill's home game v Bath.
So the punters still go for it. |
That's a one off though and sadly the same day as my birthday party, I'd love to see Ampthill play Bath at home, what a hoot.
They are lucky that they have some big local matches with Bedford, Cambridge and Chinnor all being within easy range for an away fan.
But crowds are never going to sustain Ampthill it will always be the pockets of some rich men and the link with Saracens.
If either of those things goes I imagine we will drop down a league or two in short order.
------------- Propping up the board
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Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 15:11
dropout22 wrote:
If you believe Jersey RFC aren't paying players... you will believe Richmond were amateur in the Championship like they reported.
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It never ceases to amaze me how much posters on this site know about the financial models of clubs in different leagues, hundreds of miles away, which they have no association with.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 21 Oct 2024 at 16:49
FlyingRuck wrote:
....I think that the RFU are keen to apply and promote the term "Community" to the National Leagues because it suits their agenda...
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Point taken and agreed. I fell for their trap!
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 01:14
islander wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
If you believe Jersey RFC aren't paying players... you will believe Richmond were amateur in the Championship like they reported. |
It's not a question of believing D22, I know how things stand here in Jersey and am happy to go on record with that...
Can't speak for Richmond, but as I recall they were open about paying players a match fee and/or win bonus during their time back in 2nd tier |
I can't speak on behalf of Richmond as a club, but as a supporter of several decades who knows a lot about the club and speaks frequently to the people who have been chairmen and presidents in recent seasons, I can say this: since 1999, Richmond only pay players a match fee and a win bonus. When we first went up to the Championship in 2016, we increased the match fee a fair bit, I think to £300 from £175, with the win bonus going up to £100 from £50, but I may be wrong in the exact figures. That is the ballpark. A cap was placed on the total any one player could get in a season because the fee was raised and there were concerns people might get the wrong idea about being paid to play - and the cap was £9,000 as I recall. No player came close to it, in fact I believe nobody got above half that number for the season.
We have a loose "jobs bureau" where if a lad is interested in a certain profession they can get advice and maybe an introduction or two from club members who work in that line. I have done that myself once. I am not aware that anyone associated with the club employs or has ever employed any of the players. Again, I may be wrong. The sort of arrangement some clubs have where players are employed by the person or people who effectively run the club does not exist at Richmond to the best of my knowledge.
There are no players on salaries or contracts that pay money. I am not sure whether players get contracted to us as part of registration - a lot of the language around this subject is ambiguous. But players joining the club from elsewhere are told they cannot earn their living from playing rugby for Richmond.
We usually have a couple of Harlequins youngsters (Lucas Schmid and Frank McMillan this season) and have benefitted from having the likes of Kyle Sinckler, George Merrick, Louis Lynagh (who with his brother Tom was a Richmond mini) and Lennox Anwanyu in the past. The board has recently told members that the club would have nothing to do with a league that expected us to open our First Team to a large number of players from another club.
That is what the club calls the Richmond Way - not a phrase I like, to be honest - and it is all driven by the experience of going bust in 1999 and deciding 'never again'. You can be cynical or sceptical about it, but that is how it is.
------------- Broken down. Beyond repair.
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Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 08:45
Wasn't Ampthill's early rise through the leagues based on a hand full of Tongans, who also sold cars?? At that time ,we used to know Ampthill as 'Old Tongonians'! I believe that they were promoted to Nat 1 through the play-off system and then picked up following cash injections. The cash will run out when those putting in move on or lose interest.
------------- All Knwoing All Seeing
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Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 08:53
FHLH wrote:
Stuartnottingham wrote:
The RFU probably don’t think there is a place for Ampthill in tier 2 |
National One is where Community (affordable & member players) club rugby is played, Championship is a bit of a mess. Amps (and Caldy & Cambridge), know your place.
Article in TRP about virtues of the broken 3 straight back in, but not Jersey - maybe they've seen the light.
|
I think you mean 'the National Leagues' rather than simply 'Nat 1.'. The majority of Nat 1 & 2 Clubs run 3-4 Senior Men's teams, a Women's Team and a full range of MJ's from U5's to U19's but, we are seeing an increase of 'one team' Clubs, who of course are run on the whim/cash of some personal ego/egos and give nothing back to the game. Here again, eventually the cash will run out, leaving no foundations etc!
------------- All Knwoing All Seeing
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 09:56
Sid James wrote:
I think you mean 'the National Leagues' rather than simply 'Nat 1.'. The majority of Nat 1 & 2 Clubs run 3-4 Senior Men's teams, a Women's Team and a full range of MJ's from U5's to U19's but, we are seeing an increase of 'one team' Clubs, who of course are run on the whim/cash of some personal ego/egos and give nothing back to the game. Here again, eventually the cash will run out, leaving no foundations etc! |
I meant National One is the top of club rugby IMHO
------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts."
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Posted By: Baggins
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 10:06
Sid James wrote:
Wasn't Ampthill's early rise through the leagues based on a hand full of Tongans, who also sold cars??At that time ,we used to know Ampthill as 'Old Tongonians'! I believe that they were promoted to Nat 1 through the play-off system and then picked up following cash injections. The cash will run out when those putting in move on or lose interest. |
It was basically based on getting a very high quality head coach early on and letting him get on with things. That included getting in a few Tongans because Paul Turner was a fan of their attitude to Rugby, training and staying fit, Molitika staying fit and playing into his 40s is a great role model to young lads and clubs thinking about loaning good academy lads to lower clubs probably think about those sorts of things along with the quality of coaching they will get and having Paul Turner there is obviously a massive plus point in that.
And all that is probably based on the money of the DoR and his companies sponsorships etc
I doubt there is any side in the Championship and few in the premiership who would survive if key people pulled the plug; Jersey, LI, Worcester and Wasps all show that quite clearly; Ampthill are no different in that respect from anyone else bar a small number of Prem clubs.
------------- Propping up the board
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Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 12:18
Breakdown wrote:
islander wrote:
dropout22 wrote:
If you believe Jersey RFC aren't paying players... you will believe Richmond were amateur in the Championship like they reported. |
It's not a question of believing D22, I know how things stand here in Jersey and am happy to go on record with that...
Can't speak for Richmond, but as I recall they were open about paying players a match fee and/or win bonus during their time back in 2nd tier |
I can't speak on behalf of Richmond as a club, but as a supporter of several decades who knows a lot about the club and speaks frequently to the people who have been chairmen and presidents in recent seasons, I can say this: since 1999, Richmond only pay players a match fee and a win bonus. When we first went up to the Championship in 2016, we increased the match fee a fair bit, I think to £300 from £175, with the win bonus going up to £100 from £50, but I may be wrong in the exact figures. That is the ballpark. A cap was placed on the total any one player could get in a season because the fee was raised and there were concerns people might get the wrong idea about being paid to play - and the cap was £9,000 as I recall. No player came close to it, in fact I believe nobody got above half that number for the season.
We have a loose "jobs bureau" where if a lad is interested in a certain profession they can get advice and maybe an introduction or two from club members who work in that line. I have done that myself once. I am not aware that anyone associated with the club employs or has ever employed any of the players. Again, I may be wrong. The sort of arrangement some clubs have where players are employed by the person or people who effectively run the club does not exist at Richmond to the best of my knowledge.
There are no players on salaries or contracts that pay money. I am not sure whether players get contracted to us as part of registration - a lot of the language around this subject is ambiguous. But players joining the club from elsewhere are told they cannot earn their living from playing rugby for Richmond.
We usually have a couple of Harlequins youngsters (Lucas Schmid and Frank McMillan this season) and have benefitted from having the likes of Kyle Sinckler, George Merrick, Louis Lynagh (who with his brother Tom was a Richmond mini) and Lennox Anwanyu in the past. The board has recently told members that the club would have nothing to do with a league that expected us to open our First Team to a large number of players from another club.
That is what the club calls the Richmond Way - not a phrase I like, to be honest - and it is all driven by the experience of going bust in 1999 and deciding 'never again'. You can be cynical or sceptical about it, but that is how it is.
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To be honest I don't think it is just the Richmond way. I believe a number of other clubs use a similar fixed match fee/win bonus approach. Esher I know have fixed match fees although I don't know if they have win bonuses (not that they would need to pay many this season!).
As for a "job bureau" again I think many clubs have members who help find employment for their players but I suspect Richmond may have an advantage being so close to the City.
I think Richmond have a great approach to the game and the fact they run several very strong senior men's sides and are competitive in NL1 suggests it is successful. Good luck to them.
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Posted By: Paul10
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 13:13
I'd say there is a version of the jobs bureau at every rugby club in the world.
I know where I go first when I need work or advice.
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Posted By: Breakdown
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 14:27
Paul10 wrote:
I'd say there is a version of the jobs bureau at every rugby club in the world.
I know where I go first when I need work or advice. |
Absolutely agree - I wasn't claiming that it or the "Richmond Way" thing were in any way unique or pioneering. There was an earlier post which strongly implied that the club had salaried players when in the Championship and I was laying out what incentives, including the payment of match fees and the potential advantage of job contacts, were on offer for people to come and play at the RAG.
------------- Broken down. Beyond repair.
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 15:47
Sid James wrote:
Wasn't Ampthill's early rise through the leagues based on a hand full of Tongans, who also sold cars?
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I always heard that they washed them on the forecourt!
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 15:53
Esher pay a fixed match fee and no win bonus. We did the same last season. Players join and play for us for non-financial reasons which do include finding jobs for them.
Research I did a long time ago showed that players join Clubs where they already have friends ( even Tigers in the 1990s).
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Posted By: No 7
Date Posted: 22 Oct 2024 at 23:07
No win bonus
------------- Ambition should be made of sterner stuff.
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Posted By: JZSmith
Date Posted: 23 Oct 2024 at 12:20
Halliford wrote:
Sid James wrote:
Wasn't Ampthill's early rise through the leagues based on a hand full of Tongans, who also sold cars?
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I always heard that they washed them on the forecourt! |
That's because they were too big to get in them!
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Posted By: Clive Norling
Date Posted: 25 Oct 2024 at 20:28
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