No promotion to Premiership
Printed From: National League Rugby Discussion Forum
Category: League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk
Forum Name: The Championship
Forum Description: Discuss the 12 clubs forming the English Championship.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=19074
Printed Date: 14 Aug 2024 at 02:46
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: No promotion to Premiership
Posted By: Bunkermentality
Subject: No promotion to Premiership
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:03
| RFU announce Doncaster & Ealing cannot be promoted https://t.co/xcauYbv0Je" rel="nofollow - |
Replies:
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:09
|
I thought Ealing had a further plan to groundshare with QPR which worked for Wasps a good few years ago ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:22
Reading the announcement it says that neither club had planning permission for expansion, therefore they had no plans for expansion. It also said that neither club included moving to an alternative ground in their application, therefore they could not allow for that in the audit. I expect there will be an appeal based on a proposed ground move by ET.
|
Rabbie Burns wrote:Posted By: BigChief
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:23
|
I would guess an appeal was already drafted before todays decision/notification. Will be interesting to see if they go for it. ------------- For the ordinary purposes of conversation, a superficial knowledge of many things goes further than an intimacy with one or two. |
Posted By: Scrumtime
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:25
| Be interesting to see what happens to Ealing and the money, because if he cannot go up, he might as well open the window and throw money out at the start of Sept each year. |
Posted By: Old Gold
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:26
|
No surprise ------------- One Club |
Posted By: Woody
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:33
|
If there is no prize for winning the Championship and nobody in the division meets the criteria for promotion, and there is no relegation... What was the point of this season? Surely this judgement will lead to the demise of professionalism at tier two. Ring-fencing is here. What a farce. ------------- Forever Green. |
Posted By: Pirate Pig
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:35
|
Confirmation from the RFU that neither Ealing or Doncaster meet the minimum standards of ground criteria so there will be no promotion to the premiership this season and only one team will come up from national one
The RFU have just blown away the most exciting end to a season that there has ever been in the championship with this decision. I wonder if it has anything to do with an article in this week's rugby paper where Exeter Chiefs Rob Baxter openly criticised the expansion of the premiership to 13 teams as a mistake and any increase to 14 would compound the error. The Chiefs have been struggling with injuries and international call ups during the last few weeks and these additional games were only adding to the problems faced by the premiership club.
|
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 14:53
|
Old Boys Club looking out for themselves again, why am I not surprised? I guess because they know Bath don't meet the criteria themselves. One rule for them, another to keep the upstart clubs down.
|
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 15:31
And that reason is why appealing based on the competition restriction being unfairly applied to aspirational clubs but not to existing clubs should be challenged and taken through the courts. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Stoatgobbler
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 15:48
|
All Championship clubs know the Minimum Standards Criteria required for
eligibility for promotion into the Gallagher Premiership Rugby league.
Standards have been in place for over 20 years and were refined last
year to make the application of them simpler. Oh how I laughed when I read the bit in bold. Do they think we're that stupid?
|
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 15:57
Let's see. London Irish, still playing at The Avenue, Sale at Heywood Road etc. in the first Premiership. In fact 5 of them would have failed (7 if you count the criteria being 10,001+) had that criteria been in place from the start. Even 20 years ago, 3 still didn't (Sale, Quins and Bath) qualify according to when this MSC came in, yet they were allowed to continue playing top level rugby. Hypocrisy of the highest order.
|
Posted By: Stoatgobbler
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 16:12
I believe Twickenham itself failed the criteria at one point, for not having urinals more than 60cm apart.
|
Posted By: Rothman2
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 18:44
|
Yet another contemptible decision by the powerbrokers. Unfortunately this does not surprise me whatsoever as the whole thing has been a fiasco since the turn of the 21st Century. Entirely aimed at keeping the favoured clubs in. Consider the fiasco last year when they were falling over themselves to admit Saracens after a 10 game season. I present my C RAP song summing it up as follows: The Prem and the RFU are singing this song They make it up as they go along It’s a rule for them and a rule for me It’s written on the walls in the lavatory Not interested in the other clubs They promise you games in a Micky mouse cup But then they tear the rule book up They don’t want Donny & Pirates on the map To me it’s a load of C Rap ------------- Behind every successful man is a woman, behind her is his wife. Groucho Marx |
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 18:54
|
ONE BIG JOKE Bill Sweeney is a joke, he needs to go.
|
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 19:37
| Why have the RFU blocked it, is it not down to what PRL want, what has it got to do with the cabbage patch? |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 19:59
The management of the RFU and the PRL work very closely together...........when Ian Ritchie as CEO of the RFU did an 8 year deal with the PRL they must have recognised what a great negotiator he was to limit the Premiership clubs to just £28m a year from 2016 to 2024..... Ian Ritchie left the RFU fairly shortly afterwards to take up a position as Chairman of the PRL ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 20:27
|
I like this part… Minimum Standards Criteria are in place to ensure Premiership Rugby clubs and promoted clubs have suitable facilities to protect player safety and welfare and to provide a good quality, safe environment for spectators Well with COVID actually you’ll find having a smaller capacity gives supporters that safe environment and if the clubs don’t have safe facilities how come they are allowed to operate!
|
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 20:29
The existing members were allowed but had to pay a “fine” but new clubs can’t fail and pay the fine.
|
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 21:13
So basically, they were allowed to buy their way in and skirt the rules. Rules for thee, but not for me.
|
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 21:36
| The only option now is for everyone outside the Premiership to withdraw from the RFU and form a new organisation that is fit for purpose. |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 21:44
|
With these sort of average gates, where did the 10000 seat stadium criteria come from. Average home attendance so far this season - 5 sides less than the 10,001 magic mark. Newcastle 5,471 Sale 6,146 Worcester 6,593 Saracens 7,473 London Irish 7,987 |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 01 Mar 2022 at 22:05
|
I thought it came from Bath as they supposedly had a 10,000 stadium which was the lowest around at the time? I heard once from a rugby person that had this issue that some tickets were double sold (like a plane) as they needed to get to the required threshold and it wasn’t usually an issue as they could always find some space elsewhere. It didn’t happen to me, so can’t confirm if it is true.
|
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 08:01
Actually back in 2002, Sale was the lowest with 5,700 at Heywood Road. Bath had 8,200.
|
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 08:23
|
I hope Cornish Pirates are looking at their plans for the new stadium, in Truro, and find a way to get the stand up to 10001 capacity (I believe they did have this in the future expansion plans) and the funding. This seems like it is the only way to break into the cabal, and stir up the pot a little. Good luck in your quest with this It would have been so easy for the Knights to take a ground share with Doncaster Rovers, as it was for Ealing to find a club to ground share, but we also want to retain our identities and play at our home grounds. Maybe, just maybe, someone sees the light, at the RFU, and amends the silly 10001 requirement (highly unlikely I know but if we don't have hope what do we have?) ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Runitback
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 09:25
|
There is no hope - the door is shut and will remain so . . the lower leagues now need to work out what they want . . if there was any ability to break away from the RFU it would make sense!!! ------------- Run with it |
Posted By: romford
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 09:40
|
PRL has 13 Shareholders.(Plus the Venture Capitalist who paid big bucks to the 13 for their stake)An extra team would require a dilution of shares by the existing 13. This is the real reason for this decision. Its grubby stuff from the RFU to say its all about stadium capacity. |
Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 09:46
|
Yeah if there only was some way to breakaway from the RFU Leagues............. https://twitter.com/LancsRULeagues/status/1496736797484896258?s=20&t=X-9mw_WsEtNpWa4iwgQNhQ" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/LancsRULeagues/status/1496736797484896258?s=20&t=X-9mw_WsEtNpWa4iwgQNhQ ------------- Crouch, Bind, Tweet! |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 09:48
Completely agree - this ground criteria stuff is all smoke and mirrors. The RFU and PRL are ring fencing the league but are not willing to admit it. Probably scared of legal challenges - which they may get anyway.
|
Posted By: rugbychris
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 09:49
|
A minimum of a 10001 seater stadium is realistically shutting the door. If I were a supporter of a Champ club I would be pretty confused about what being part of the Championship now means. We all want to see our teams do well and win matches but what exactly are the rewards in the championship? Effectively the RFU have created a meaningless league. It's currently split between fully pro and semi-pro. Surely their can no longer be a valid argument for a full-pro team? Without a fully-pro champ side the gulf to the premiership would be gigantic.
|
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 10:11
|
So my question is 'if both Doncaster and Ealing knew the criteria, then why did they apply?' knowing it would be refused. |
Posted By: Woody
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 10:13
|
What are we playing for? RFU have removed funding and demanded clubs invest in the possibility of promotion off the pitch in terms of facilities when most clubs can barely afford to field competitive teams. This is the outcome of a premeditated slow strangulation of our league designed to preserve the precious cartel to the exclusion of all other clubs. This is another insult to the entire pyramid below the prem. I know the criteria is well known and previously in place but the lack of any genuine partnership or willingness to develop aspirational clubs is sickening. Sweeney is a joke and the RFU have once more failed to act in the interests of the game. They are not fit for purpose and I fail to see what benefit they bring to any club below the top division. They have slashed funding and annihilated the community arm of the RFU. Time for them to go their own way and let proper rugby clubs be in charge of their own destiny. ------------- Forever Green. |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 10:16
 ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: Stalwart
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 10:57
That's it in a nutshell. There seems to have been a deliberate plan by the RFU to undermine the Championship - it seems they want it to fail and are killing it with death by a thousand cuts. It beggars belief that they can't see the massive benefits of a strong and valued second tier. Hundreds of players have cut their teeth in the Championship and gone on to the top flight and international caps. Many referees and assistants who appear in the Premiership have learned their trade in the Championship. Add to that backroom staff and coaches and the value is clear to see. We need a new organisation that looks after all clubs and supports the game. If the pyramid then has the Championship at the top it would be a very attractive product compared the the Premiership which, without promotion and relegation, will become a very tedious and boring competition. On Saturday evening we went to a concert in Penzance and bumped into a couple who had been at the Pirates v Jersey game in the afternoon. The lady was a Chiefs supporter and this had been her first Pirates game. She loved it and said she enjoyed it more than going to Exeter (100 miles away) and it was considerably cheaper!
|
Posted By: Cherub
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 11:47
|
I think it is time we take stock. Here are the facts. The RFU has made up its minds that the league will only consist of 12 teams, the funding has been slashed, no-one gets promoted to the Premiership unless they spend a fortune on obtaining the criteria required, and a meaningless cup competition will continue. Nothing is going to magically change this. There are therefore two options to follow: 1 The short- term option 2 The medium to long term option The short-term option is to reluctantly carry on within the RFU framework but with the following suggestion: At the start of each season the RFU contact each Championship club and ask them if they are an immediate aspiring club, an eventual aspiring club, or they are not an aspiring club to get into the Premiership. An immediate aspiring club is one that wants immediate promotion at the end of the season if they win the league. An eventual aspiring club is one that has plans to gradually continue to develop their club with the aim to become a Premiership club. A non-aspiring club is one that has no interest in meeting the criteria to possibly be promoted to the Premiership. Once the stance of each club is ascertained, the RFU conduct an audit on the immediate aspiring clubs to see if they satisfy the criteria required to be promoted. If the club fails, they then have the whole season to address the failures in time for an end of season audit if they win the league. The eventual aspiring clubs will be left to continue their development, and I suppose there is an argument that any clubs in the Championship who do not aspire to reaching the Premiership might not have a place in the Championship. But that is a rather controversial statement and not one I would support. The medium to long term option is simple. Break away from the RFU and create a new body to look after the interest of the Championship downwards. But where you start, how it is actioned, and how long it would take, is way beyond my pay grade. ------------- Always trying to stay bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. |
Posted By: Neasham
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 12:01
|
A third option would be to elect CB representatives who have the whole game at heart and who refuse to be bullied by those who are only interested in the professional game. Individuals must stand up and be counted.
|
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 12:29
|
Council reps are elected for a three-year term. The lections are usually in March. Your club Chairman should already have been informed if there is an election in your CB this year. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Rabbie Burns
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 12:37
|
If all the clubs below the premiership were to leave what would be the initial impact Champ club funding Travel cost at L3&4 (not much) Some IT systems (registration & GMS) What else. ------------- So many Christians not enough Lions |
Posted By: romford
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 13:20
|
Prior to the takeover of level 2 Rugby by the RFU There was a legal entity called FDR.(first Division Rugby LTD).The was similar in concept to PRL and looked after the interests of the then 16 clubs at level2. This legal entity still exists although it is a dormant company. As far as I can see Geoff Irvine of Bedford and a company secretary based in Bedford are listed at Companies house as directors. This entity could be used as a vehicle to take a raft of senior non PRL clubs out of RFU control. It currently has no assets so it would require an injection of capital as well as effective leadership to make this a reality rather than a pipe dream. This would perhaps be similar to the last schism in our game when Rugby League was founded back in the day. As far as I am aware there is nothing legally to stop a separate entity playing Rugby Union outside of the control of the RFU and World Rugby as some of the commercially driven format variations have demonstrated.(Eg 10@s 7's Wheelchair etc).
|
Posted By: Raider999
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 13:29
Possible loss of match officials? Loss of access to England match tickets A bonus would be the opportunity to negotiate a TV deal - possibly with a free to air TV channel? ------------- RAID ON |
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 13:41
|
Statement from Donny 𝘿𝙤n𝙘𝙖𝙨𝙩𝙚𝙧 𝙆ni𝙜𝙝𝙩𝙨 𝙎𝙩𝙖𝙩𝙚𝙢𝙚n𝙩 📖 Following the RFU's announcement yesterday of the findings of the minimum standards criteria, the club would like to make the following statement. Statement ➡️ https://t.co/da7C7Kzgz2" rel="nofollow - https://t.co/da7C7Kzgz2 https://t.co/8ToyY5vP2F" rel="nofollow - https://t.co/8ToyY5vP2F |
Posted By: jimbojetset
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 13:55
|
I'm assuming that given the current refusal of the RFU to allow grounds under 10,001 to host Premiership games, that the Championship strategic review regarding a cup competition between Championship teams and Premiership teams can only be played at Premiership grounds? Or do the "safety concerns" not apply to those? My view is, from an atmosphere point of view, I'd rather go to a rammed ground with 5,000 spectators at capacity than a 10,000 seater ground with 5,000 people.
|
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 13:55
|
Surely a constructive meeting and dialogue between the owners or representatives of Donny & Ealing and whoever manages this stuff at the RFU could find a sensible solution to this mess. Public announcements are as useless as megaphones and law suits only enrich lawyers. The parties involved should meet privately and sort it out. ------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 14:00
Very good point Jimbo Lad ! ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 14:32
| I remember going to see Tigers play London Welsh in a John Players Cup match(I think it was) and the Welsh players ran out onto a public park carrying the posts and put them up prior to kick off. No-one batted an eyelid, the games was played, no one died and a quite large crowd enjoyed the match. I have turned up for a game and the oppositions changing rooms were locked, we all got changed round the back, piled all the kit and clothes on the touchline and the two wingers on that side of the pitch chased the dogs away if they came too near, it's a game of rugby for goodness sake. |
Posted By: KnightsBoy
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 15:06
From a Donny point of view, the terrace side has the space to take our capacity somewhere near the criteria by adding those temporary permanent stands
|
Posted By: Thunderbird
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 15:07
| This smells of the stunt they pulled on Rotherham a few years ago. |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 15:39
|
You are correct KnightsBoy - and the space behind the posts (opposite the club house) could easily accommodate more. Let us wait and see what comes of follow up discussions, we have a season to complete and hopefully we finish first. There are some quality teams nipping at our heals so we are a long way from claiming the title and any potential promotion. I am sure Ealing and the Pirates will do their best to come out tops, unless they want to help us out  (joking before anyone bites my head off)I would just like to confirm my disdain for how the RFU have handled all of this. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: Richard Lowther
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 15:44
|
The capacity angle of the MSC is a particular farce. Clubs should be able to have what size capacity they like, ultimately its them who suffer any financial blows a lower capacity may bring. They should also be a leeway to allow grounds to be redeveloped in stages when crowds and finances allow.. Just like Saracens and Exeter are doing. As others have shown 10,000 is a somewhat arbitrary figure apparently based on the Rec and isn't met by a few club so why have it? The Doncaster statement is quiet on a keypoint on whether they applied for planning permission to erect temporary seating as the audit mentions. Did they or not? If not it seems to be a major mistake on their part.
------------- Moderator http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk" rel="nofollow - National League Rugby Message Boards Remember Wakefield RFC |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 15:50
|
I thought 10,000 was the point at which Government regulation kicked in, meaning the RFU and PPRL could say, it is not our regulations, it is the law. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 16:21
|
Sorry Camquin I didn’t understand that What law
|
Posted By: billesleyexile
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 16:31
from memory there are stadium regulations that kick in from 10,000 plus. Until then it's basically health and safety law. the caveat is that football grounds (uniquely) are covered by separate legislation to all other sports - so no issues with eg Bournemouth going to the Premier League with 6,000 seats or whatever it is. So if the RFU have decided to say 'all grounds must comply with this legislation' then it gets a bit chicken and egg, because you need 10,000 seats for the rest of the compliance to kick in... ------------- keep the faith |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 17:12
|
"One of the minimum standards criteria is that the stadium must hold a
minimum of 10,001 fans; this is to ensure the ground falls under the
remit of the Sports Grounds Safety Authority (SGSA), regulated by the
Department for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport (DCMS), and the Green
Guide, as well as to be of a standard suitable for the top league of one
of the nation’s major sports. This has been in place for many years but
was considered again when the standards were reviewed last season." ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 17:16
|
The Safety at Sports Grounds Act 1975 requires grounds with a capacity of 10,000 or more to be licensed as safe by their Local Authority. That was referred to by the RFU. Of course, the provision has already been amended for Premiership/EFL grounds which only have to have 5,000. That was by Order of the Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport. If it can be done for soccer, why not for rugby?
|
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 17:30
|
I have never been to Doncaster or Castle Park but I have just viewed their stadium on their website and their response to the RFU. Castle Park looks to be a superb modern stadium and Doncaster's response to the RFU was exemplary. Bill Sweeny and the RFU should be ashamed ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: Count Ford
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 17:31
But funnily enough Saracens have spent time recently in the premiership when their ground didn't have this capacity and yet they weren't asked to move grounds while their current one was redeveloped..so it seems the ground falling under the remit of of SGSA doesn't matter in some situations or for favoured teams
|
Posted By: tulip
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 18:08
|
Camquin said “To be of a standard suitable for the top league of one of the nations major sports “ So who decides what the major sports are. What about Athletics or Swimming. I’m sure they have leagues as well
|
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 18:11
|
Halliford, you may think that, I could not possibly comment. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 19:10
I don't understand jokes, and am now your mortal enemy. Return to Ealing at your peril, knave.
|
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 19:25
|
Sorry Gerg- next time I go to Vallis Way I shall travel incognito 🥸 ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 19:27
Blues applied before to just see what they would come up with in the report, knowing that there was probably quite a bit they would be pulled up on.
|
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 19:32
You could argue you are safer in a rugby ground, with no segregation and the crowd has never pelted players with missile or torn the stadium apart to throw seats at others etc!
|
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 20:14
|
Interview with Jersey Reds Chairman on this topic... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkS34rWOplA" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkS34rWOplA
|
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 20:30
|
And two Telegraph articles, first one below. It's good to see this topic getting serious airtime in the national media... COMMENT What is the point of the Championship if there is no pathway to England's top flight? There is frustration within the Championship of double-standards that clubs already in Premiership aren't subject to same rules, like Bath GAVIN MAIRS, CHIEF RUGBY UNION CORRESPONDENT 2 March 2022 • 2:15pm Stuck in the dark ages. That was the damning verdict of Joe Marler, the England prop. Commercial commitments ensure it is usually a rare occurrence for any professional rugby player to make a controversial remark on their social media account. But in doing so Marler, the Harlequins forward, who had himself benefited from loans spells at Esher and Worthing, captured the anger and frustration of a large section of the rugby community in England at the decision by the professional game board to reject the Premiership promotion applications by Ealing Trailfinders and Doncaster Knights. “Apparently they would rather not grow the game...” added Marler, whose tweet sparked a long list of comments from supporters critical of the decision as well as from many players in the Championship. It is an issue that is close to the heart of many Telegraph Sport readers. What is the point of the Championship if it is denuded of a pathway to the Premiership? An independent audit concluded both clubs had failed to meet the minimum standards criteria, which includes a stadium that must hold a minimum of 10,001 fans. The capacity at both clubs is currently around 5,000 and this year neither had proposed groundshare arrangements in their applications. On the face of it, the decision was straightforward. The MSC has been in place for 20 years and was reviewed again last year. Clubs like Exeter Chiefs had to endure the pain and financial commitment required on their promotion to the Premiership in 2010 to upgrade Sandy Park. London Welsh in 2012 had to scramble arrangements to groundshare with Oxford United at the Kassam Stadium when they shocked everyone by winning the play-off against Cornish Pirates, despite finishing 14 points behind Bristol at the top of the table. Yet these are far from normal times. It was only in June last year that the RFU council passed a Covid recovery plan, in which it made the historic decision to introduce a moratorium on relegation from the Premiership on the grounds that it would improve “the financial stability and sustainability of professional rugby” for the next three seasons. The temporary end to relegation was tempered by the commitment that the door would still be kept open for promotion from the Championship, to allow an expansion to 14 clubs for the start of next season. The result has been one of the most spell-binding Championship campaigns in years; a thrilling battle at the top of the table with three potential champions in Doncaster, Ealing and Cornish Pirates. Yet, in an instant, the announcement of the PGB decision, which has been ratified by the RFU board, has rendered it a meaningless competition and we are only just into March. It is stunning body blow to a competition that less than a week ago was bracing itself for a proposal to introduce Premiership A sides into the league, even though clubs are in the process of reducing the size of their squads because of financial constraints and many players who have experienced both expound the development benefits of playing for a Championship club. Both league leaders Doncaster and third-placed Ealing have the right to appeal, and they should do so. London Welsh fell foul of the minimum standards criteria decision in 2012 and had it overturned with their groundshare deal in Oxford. Both Ealing and Doncaster were confident that their plans to increase capacities and improve facilities would have been enough for the audit and questions arise as to why they should have to be in a position to make such a draining financial commitment so soon in the season? Championship insiders say the position has not been helped that if the promoted club wants to buy a ‘P share,’ its valuation could be potentially prohibitive, with some estimating the value at £20 million. Premiership Rugby insists no valuation has been put on it yet. The irony is that just as the Premiership wants expansion to erase the anomaly of a 13-club league and bring in extra revenue from home games, the PGB has made the financial gulf too large for clubs from the Championship to close at a time when the impact of the Covid pandemic has left all clubs with mounting debts. There is frustration amongst Championship clubs, too, at the perception of double-standards that clubs already in the Premiership are not subject to the same rules, such as Bath, whose temporary stand at the Rec is without a roof, something that sources say has led to an annual fine. "If Bath were relegated, would they be allowed to be promoted again on minimum standards criteria? It is a question that has never been answered," says one Championship insider. A Premiership spokesman said that as each club is independently audited each year, Bath would be promoted under MSC. It is understandable why some clubs should baulk at suggestions of allowing the promoted club from the Championship leeway that was not offered to them. But these are not normal times. The Premiership needs 14 clubs and despite the huge financial commitment required to play in the top flight, there are still two clubs in the Championship with the fire in their belly for the fight. Both clubs at present can accommodate crowds of 5,000. Doncaster currently have a safety certificate, so the 10,001 figure is effectively a subjective one, although the club would have been party to the MSC. Ealing do not and therefore there is no way their ground could be approved and must therefore seek a groundshare. Insiders say that both clubs were aware of the timescale, which had been brought forward to give certainty earlier in the process to avoid the situation of previous years where the process could drag on into the summer. No doubt the uncertainty of the Championship title race has played a part in this. We can but assume however that the decision to appeal is genuine and if the desire is there to go up, then they should be given more time to resolve the outstanding issues. There are many points to the Championship, not least as a brilliant conveyor belt for players who have gone on to represent England, benefiting from spells alongside former players in English rugby's second tier. Just as it suited the Premiership to ditch relegation for at least three season as part of the Covid recovery plan, surely there must be a way to accommodate clubs who have a genuine ambition to join them if they earn the right to do so on the pitch, regardless of the number of covered seats they have in their stands. |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 20:31
|
2nd Telegraph article (there's some overlap with the one above): 'Stuck in the dark ages': Joe Marler hits out after Ealing and Doncaster denied Premiership promotion Both teams had promotion applications rejected based on stadium capacity, with Doncaster Knights appealing the decision By Ben Coles, RUGBY REPORTER 2 March 2022 • 5:10pm England prop Joe Marler hit out at the decision to reject both Ealing Trailfinders and Doncaster Knights' promotion applications from the Championship, describing the Rugby Football Union and Premiership Rugby as "stuck in the dark ages still". Championship leaders Doncaster Knights, along with third-placed Ealing, had their applications turned down based on stadium capacity, with neither side able to host Premiership matches at stadia which meet the minimum standards criteria required by the RFU. Those standards include that a stadium must hold a minimum of 10,001 fans. Harlequins prop Marler, who has previously spent brief loan spells at Esher and Worthing, was in no doubt over the impression the verdict was giving out. Doncaster Knights have confirmed that they will appeal the rejected proposal based on the club's stadium, Castle Park, not meeting the minimum standards criteria. The club said in a statement that it was "disappointed, dismayed and disheartened" by the decision given that Castle Park has hosted Women's Six Nations and England Under-20 matches in the past. Doncaster, however, added that a "stand-by ground", presumably meeting the required criteria, was now available for the club to use during the 2022-23 season, should they win promotion. Telegraph Sport understands that Ealing will also apppeal the decision. The club's players were incensed after being informed of the decision after training on Tuesday, with many having signed contracts with the club seeking to win promotion to the Premiership. It is understood that neither Ealing nor Doncaster proposed ground-share agreements with larger stadiums in their applications, or have plans in place to expand their respective capacities. Both sides would now need to find stadiums with which meet the minimum standards criteria in order to be eligible for promotion. Both Doncaster and Ealing have applied to be eligible for promotion through ground-share agreements with alternative venues in the past, with Ealing proposing to play at Saracens' StoneX Stadium in 2021 and Doncaster in previous years at the 15,231-capacity Keepmoat Stadium used by Doncaster Rovers Football Club. Ealing Trailfinders do not currently have a licensed capacity, but the ground holds approximately 5,000, with 2,115 seats. Doncaster Knights currently have a capacity of around 5,183, with 1,926 seats. Including the Big Game played at Twickenham, the average attendance in the Premiership season as of Round 15 this season has been 11,900 fans per match. Championship players reacted with anger at the decision and openly criticised the RFU. Bedford Blues player Ollie Stedman tweeted: "What is the point in the league then? No promotion, no relegation… Just glorified friendlies and a tick box exercise for the RFU?" Guy Thompson, the former Wasps and Leicester back-row now at Jersey, added: "This is a really poor decision. Greedy owners that want to keep a monopoly on it. A team that wins a league deserves the opportunity to compete and grow. Such a predictable outcome by the @RFU!" Ampthill forward Charlie Beckett, the brother of England Women's international Sarah, added: "Both Trailfinders Sports Park and Castle Park are brilliant grounds/facilities. Them not holding 10000 being the reason neither team can win promotion is laughable in my opinion. Gutted for all the staff, players and fans of both sides, and for this brilliant league as a whole. "Also, it’s nice to see the RFU feel Trailfinders Sports Park was good enough to host the Premier15s final a number of years ago, and that Castle Park is good enough to host @EnglandRugby women’s internationals, but neither is good enough for men’s Premiership?" Should Ealing's appeal prove successful it would have echoes of London Welsh's promotion to the Premiership back in 2012, after their initial application was rejected due to not holding primacy of tenure at the 12,500-capacity Kassam Stadium in Oxford, despite the fact that other Premiership clubs at the time - London Irish, Saracens, Wasps and Sale - were playing without primacy of tenure at their respective grounds. Bill Sweeney, chief executive officer of the RFU, said: "The RFU and PRL would welcome a Championship club being promoted to create a 14-team Gallagher Premiership league. "In the past, clubs with home grounds which would not meet the Minimum Standards Criteria have nominated other grounds, under a ground-share agreement to provide a bridge between a club developing its own facilities to provide safe, compliant participation in the Premiership. "The RFU and PRL would like to support and encourage all Championship clubs to continue to develop their proposals for the expansion and development of their grounds including the submission of formal planning applications." Saracens' director of rugby Mark McCall expressed his disappointment at the news, after Saracens were promoted from the Championship at the end of the 2020-21 season. "I’ve always felt that if a club has the resources and the ambition, and deserves to be in the Premiership that should never be stopped," McCall said. "The case of Exeter 12 years ago shows you what’s capable. I don’t know the reasons, it’s probably facility based, but that’s a real shame to see that." |
Posted By: CJB1
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 20:37
|
Is Mike Gooley not minded to dip into his evidently very deep pockets, possibly in collaboration with people from Doncaster and/or Pirates, to challenge this? There are so many inconsistencies in the case from the Premiership stance, it must be worth a go, surely? And, to the point, if not now, then when should it happen? ------------- "What I need is a strong drink and a peer group" |
Posted By: Pirate Pig
Date Posted: 02 Mar 2022 at 21:33
|
I think the one question that does need answering is what is the promotion/relegation situation for next season. At present there is due to be no promotion from the championship to the premiership as part of the RFU/PRL agreement announced last June as outlined below; If this agreement is still in place that means all games next season will be friendlies and there will be no point in making any investment in playing squads. "The 2021-22 season will have 13 teams with no relegation at the end of the campaign and the Championship winners will be promoted. There will be no relegation or promotion in the 2022-23 season. The 2023-24 season will have a playoff between the Championship winners and the club finishing bottom of the Premiership to decide who plays in the top flight the following season." |
Posted By: PiffPaff
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 07:18
|
So in other words PP, Pirates, ET, Knights, et al have two years to get their Ground capacity up to 10001 and assemble a squad to win the Championship in 2023/24 and then beat a Premiership Squad in a playoff probably away. Kind of a Catch-22 - spend money on upgrading your Ground and spend more money on upgrading your squad. Think most Clubs would struggle with that. ------------- Crouch, Bind, Tweet! |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 08:50
Hi PiffPaff - in reality the 10001 has to be in place to go up - so that investment has to happen before they can take their place at the top table, then they have two years in which to spend more money on their squad - factoring in that neither Ealing or the Knights aren't looking to buy into the shares they will be receiving considerably less funding, but will get a piece of the TV money and potentially increased sponsorship / advertising revenue from which they will need to recover their outlay for increasing the capacity and invest in squad upgrades. An interesting conundrum to deliberate on I guess. The Knights believe they have the plans in place for the capacity issue, not sure about Ealing but will assume that something is being done on that front. At present Cornish Pirates plans for the new stadium do not have an intention of 10001 capacity but it has the scope to be expanded to meet this (happy to be corrected by my pirates colleagues if this is not the case). ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 10:28
| As Barf seem to be able to play at the wreck, which is a public park and just put up temporary stands on a permanent basis, why can't others do the same? Tigers used to play Euro cup games at the Leicester City football ground to accommodate more fans before they extended their own ground and Quinns often do the same going to Twickers, again why couldn't Donny hire a bigger ground if they want to have more travelling fans from the likes of Tigers or Northampton? |
Posted By: Sail By
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 10:44
|
This is about identity not money. Castle Park is their home. Donny want to look at sustainably building at their home and not have to run off and go to a soleless half empty stadium. The Championship Clubs Podcast gives a great review https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8ivVYczD9Y&t=1s" rel="nofollow - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8ivVYczD9Y&t=1s |
Posted By: 'Hopper
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 10:51
|
Wake up and smell the coffee you Championship club supporters! The Premiership and RFU have a cosy little closed shop in operation. You're never going to break in without drastic action as they'll continue to move the goalposts in their favour. Stop playing into their hands in blooding their Academy Players for them. This action may be detrimental to your current Level 2 position, but at least you will have a team full of your own players. ------------- What if the Hokey Kokey really IS what it's all about? |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 11:01
|
CoVid recovery. No Premiership relegation. No Championship relegation. But what of National 1? Team promoted to Championship. Leaves 14 clubs. Which is how many clubs are in National 1 next year. So is relegation suspended from National 1 to enable CoVid recovery? Thus no promotion from National 2? ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 11:04
| Easy answer - 2 will be relegated from Nat1 (the only relegations that will take place across the whole pyramid) They will be replaced by the winners of Nat2 (North & South) With OE's demise that will leave them with the 14 clubs required |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 11:48
|
Covid recovery, that is for the "professional game", we are "community game". Apparently we just play for fun, so no recovery required. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 11:49
Did you go to the University of the Bl33din' Obvious? ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 12:33
If you looked at Doncaster Knights squad, players do not parachute in from the Prem Academies as a general rule (obviously there are occasions where needs must i.e. not enough players fit or well to field a squad)- we have returned players when their parent club either insist on us playing them (if they have trained well, and earned a spot in the squad they play, if not they don't). The clubs approach is season long or to the end of the season loans where they then got selected on merit - as such we do not play into their hands per se. This is how we have managed to develop a tight knit group of players and are able to sit in the top cohort of clubs in the Championship. We have a rather small squad and in reality probably a smaller amount of loan players than most (but not all) at this level. ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 03 Mar 2022 at 22:49
|
Just thinking how Rugby wants 10.000 capacity venues. But if Luton Town get in footballs Premier League through play offs, it will be in a ground less than 10,500. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 00:18
|
Just when you thought it was safe to g back in the water https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-format-changes-central-contracts-two-conferences-1496263" rel="nofollow - https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/premiership-rugby-format-changes-central-contracts-two-conferences-1496263 ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 07:12
|
16 teams 2 conferences What a unique idea Mr Sweeny I have a more radical idea 14 teams play home and away 26 meaningful matches Top 8 play in Europe in two competitions Four in Cup, 4 in Trophy The bottom 6 join (wait for it) an English League cup with 14 Championship clubs. The top two from each of the four pools of five, go to a knockout event from quarter finals, So Championship/Bottom Premiership clubs play minimum 30 matches, 26 league, 4 cup. Quarters and semis 4 games and final. Five weekends for group matches. I know, mad, but madness and HQ sit together. ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: dropout22
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 14:05
|
Both clubs appealed... Ealing looking to ground-share with Saracens.
|
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 14:23
|
That really is very cute (and clever!) knowing full well that Saracens were allowed back in at a time when they were unable to meet the 10,001 criteria Good luck to both Donny and Ealing in overturning this ludicrous judgement that brings the whole game into disrepute
|
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 14:27
If the RFU tries to deny the appeal on the basis that they should have put this information in their original submission the RFU will face more opprobrium than they did earlier in the week ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: OldNick
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 15:09
| It was certainly a share that was being rumoured openly when Coventry played at Ealing on 22nd January. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 15:51
Yes, I recall you saying at the time. ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: The Blues
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 17:58
They just hosted Chelsea didn’t they?
|
Posted By: kempstonblue
Date Posted: 04 Mar 2022 at 22:52
Exactly ------------- The older I get, the more the RFU leave me confused. |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2022 at 17:45
|
https://rugbyandthelaw.com/2022/03/04/ealing-trailfinders-doncaster-knights-rugby-denied-premiership-promotion-rfu-grounds-for-appeal-independent-arbitration-panel-competition-law/%20" rel="nofollow - https://rugbyandthelaw.com/2022/03/04/ealing-trailfinders-doncaster-knights-rugby-denied-premiership-promotion-rfu-grounds-for-appeal-independent-arbitration-panel-competition-law/
Excellent article by a solicitor at a sports law firm. Seems very likely that either team will win on appeal.
|
Posted By: Trailfinder
Date Posted: 05 Mar 2022 at 18:31
|
Great article, let’s hope if either team wins the Champ they successfully appeal. Personally I’m not fussed about playing in the Prem but the fact they have told us we can’t makes me want to stick two finger up at the establishment.
|
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 08:04
|
Also, how many premiership clubs have training facilities of this standard? https://www.therugbypaper.co.uk/latest-news/349634/collinson-construction-completes-new-3-8m-training-centre-for-ealing-trailfinders/" rel="nofollow - Collinson Construction completes new £3.8m training centre for Ealing Trailfinders (therugbypaper.co.uk)
|
Posted By: corporalcarrot
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 08:43
In the light of the RFU decision could the Championship Clubs opt out of the proposed Cup competition and replace it with an alternative set of fixtures which would in part mirror the old play-off system? I'm sure brighter minds can improve on my first thoughts which in summary are:
------------- Dont kick it. Pick it up and GO FORWARD. |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 17:15
Just like London Welsh did when they exposed the hypocrisy of not allowing them to go up playing at Oxford on the grounds of a lack of primacy of tenancy, when clubs like London Irish groundshared and didn't have primacy. This is either going to be overturned or end up in court.
|
Posted By: ChrisB
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 17:54
|
BT Sport doubling up as the RFU/Prem spokesmen in this discussion this evening - not much effort to see the Champ clubs points of view ------------- ChrisB |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 20:05
Agreed, very tedious, and utterly at odds with all but one of the tweets/mails.
|
Posted By: oneagainstthehead
Date Posted: 06 Mar 2022 at 22:19
|
The party line was well and truly toed. Nothing more than lip-service paid to any other point of view. All about what the Premiership clubs have to lose, little about what Championship clubs have to gain. Disappointing but predictable. ------------- Speak softly, but carry a big stick. |
Posted By: Big Eddie
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 08:26
|
I was talking to a former RFU Council member last week. He is a very well connected senior guy with a distinguished rugby pedigree. His view about all of this was damming of the RFU and he made it clear that there was no one in the senior management of the RFU that had any connection or empathy with the club game and the RFU's energies and focus were entirely devoted to the Premiership and the international game. He did correct my point about largesse and freebies for the RFU Council members ......citing that there isn't any money available for that now, but he did concur that the majority of the RFU Council members are still in thrall to RFU Senior Management and they do not act as the check and balance they should do. His view of the treatment of the Championship was that the RFU will only provide minimal support out of whatever is left after the RFU has provided for the Premiership and the International game He was scathing of the Senior Management of the RFU for their lack of understanding and empathy for the wider game and their clear lack of transparency and accountability. The reason that I have set out some of the important matters arising from this private conversation is that it confirms from someone very much closer to the action than all of us, that our frustrations and anger are well founded. The individual concerned (who it would be unfair of me to name as it was a private conversation) was interested to learn that there was an online petition about all of this and he was also made aware of the strength of feeling on the Rolling Maul forum which he had never previously visited. On the basis that this petition may further highlight the disregard that the RFU has for the club game and its 2,000 + clubs I have repeated the link here https://www.change.org/p/rugby-fans-real-rugby-fans-lets-stand-up-to-the-rfu?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=a3fc33d0-b7ca-0130-0848-00221964dac8" rel="nofollow - https://www.change.org/p/rugby-fans-real-rugby-fans-lets-stand-up-to-the-rfu?utm_source=share_petition&utm_medium=custom_url&recruited_by_id=a3fc33d0-b7ca-0130-0848-00221964dac8 ------------- ''The future isn't what it used to be'' |
Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 07 Mar 2022 at 18:50
Nice one Eddie. Be good to see this discussion on TV or in a broadsheet or TRP (one reporter excluded) ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 13:03
|
And just to show how biased the RFU is - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-60696248" rel="nofollow - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-60696248 Although not directly linked to the RFU.
------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |
Posted By: gerg_861
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 15:48
|
Ealing statement published. This aligns with rumors that I heard that the RFU pulled a bait and switch, first encouraging the phased development, then issuing the failed audit announcement.
Firstly we would like to thank our loyal supporters and the wider rugby world for the enormous swell of support and empathy following the RFU's disappointing decision. To be clear, if we win this year’s fiercely contested Championship, we will be appealing the decision and have lodged that request formally in advance. We are confident of a positive outcome to this appeal. Our submitted audit was not surprisingly based on the revised Minimum Standards Criteria, which focused, post covid, on clubs building financially secure and sustainable models protecting the Clubs, the Premiership and English Rugby. Because of this shift in focus and positive engagement with key Union decision-makers, we put forward a staged stadium development approach at our home ground, giving us the ability to have 7,500 capacity in Year 1 and build to 10,001 by Year 3. Our accurate assumptions are that our crowds would never be sold out at those numbers in that time frame, therefore having no negative effect on a rugby supporter or any other external bodies. The plan would develop a financially sustainable way robustly underpinned by our passionate and committed owner. Looking at rugby attendances in the premiership this season, our proposed capacity would not be out of sync with the attendances at many of the Premiership grounds. In its current format, our ground has hosted a season of Super League Rugby, The Women's Premiership Final and would have hosted England U20 v South Africa U20 (cancelled by Covid). Our plans to significantly improve our current set up in Year 1 and by Year 3 having a 10,001 stadium despite the events above have been refused. Interestingly looking at football, a sport we would love to rival on attendances, have a minimum capacity for Premier League entry of 5,000. Championship Clubs with Premiership ambitions should surely be actively encouraged to develop their stadiums rather than renting other grounds and losing key income lines along the way (food, drink, merchandise, ticketing). Plans and methods should be implicated and encouraged by governing bodies to ensure this happens whilst ensuring no adverse effects to supporters, other clubs, broadcasters etc. Our proposal is detailed, robust and in keeping with the spirit of the revised MSC, and the RFU’s decision is disappointing. Thank you once again for the support we have received. We hope the climax to the season is an exciting one, with the best team on the pitch picking up the trophy. Ealing Trailfinders. |
Posted By: castleparknight
Date Posted: 11 Mar 2022 at 15:55
Nice, sensible response  ------------- Onward and Upwards C'mon Donny! |