The regulations helpfully say, "the top two Clubs in each Level 5 League will be promoted to Level 4 or such other number as notified by the Committee in order to effect the league sizes set out in Regulation 13.2.4"

Which is not a lot of help.

I suspect it will turn out to be 10 up across the four leagues, with best playing record selecting the two third place teams.

So I believe Old Redcliffians are in pole on 89 points, with Hertford on 81 in second, though only on wins from Blackburn, with Syston training on 77 points, but remember Foinavon.

Five tough games and a few shredded nails

Very confusing and LSE will go to the last day of the season.

Best Playing Record is defined in Regulation 1, Definitions.

Its League points, then most wins, most draws, and higher points difference.

If that does not split  the sides, then ignore the first match of the season.

In all cases, averaged by the number of matches - but that should not be an issue this year.

A walkover counts as a win, but is ignored when calculation points difference per match.

Within a league points total is counts after points difference, but not between leagues.

Now that CS Stags have effectively been removed from the league and all points associated with their games declared null and void. These wins would not count.

That means we will be looking at points per game, etc.

It is a pity as Civil Service were a founding member of the RFU. They were also founding members of the FA, but the members split, with one section adopting Association laws and the other, Stags, sticking to Rugby Laws. The Association section is the only remaining founder member of the FA. 

I see none of the top 4 still had to play CS, so is it right that the standings wouldn't be affected by their results being expunged?

In what way?

My view. Let the teams decide. CS want to go down a league anyway so let that happen next season. A withdrawal bumps them down to Level 10 and that’s not a good outcome.

Aside of Civil Service getting kicked out? What kind do you mean? 

If Civil Service get ejected, then results against them are wiped as if they never happened.

I can't see how they can regather as they have no youth section, only 1 team in a fiercely competitive rugby area, no ownership of their ground and (what I presume is) little backing from the Civil Service.

It obviously  looks like we wont have had a chance to play them at all this season!! 

our game against them in a few weeks is our last home game of the season and the presidents lunch which both combined  normally sees 800 or more people pack Hooks Lane, much needed revenue for us ....more than probably now flushed  down the pan!

Which two clubs?.....you cant say that, then not tell us🙄

Presumably, one would be Old Albanians, as they have got a 5 point deduction.

If CS Stags withdraw, the games they played are null and void.

The ranking of the third place teams is on a points per game basis.

So

Hertford would now be on 71 points from 19 games of 3.74 points per game.

Blackburn would be on 81/21 = 3.86 points per game.

However, according to their website, Stags are intending to play next week - and to pay tribute to Stevie Fuller in a buffet after the match.

If CS Stags complete the season, albeit with a number of walkovers, Hertford keeps the points and wins. But the walk-over is not counted if the calculation needs to go to points difference per game.

That's the problem, Civil Service don't seem to have a choice about withdrawing. The RFU (or LSE RFU) are kicking them out unless they appeal by Friday apparently

I obviously have not been following closely, but they have forfeited a lot of games - so something is obviously wrong.

Presumably, there would be nothing stopping the Stags fixtures going ahead as a friendly, with the host club potentially lending them players to get a game.

On tha basis that the precedent is if you give 5 walkovers in a season, you are withdrawn. Nothing specific in the regs about this.

A new league from North and Midlands 

Another from South West and London

As Bedfords second club Ath are already promoted, it is interesting that whilst in the past they have been on the edge of Midlands Premier, it seems with geography not always matching club numbers possible Ath could be playing away anywhere from Leicestershire to Hertfordshire next season. 

With 26 clubs at least to be promoted into the six leagues, going to be a lot of new visitors at our local grounds, and new grounds to visit.

I can’t begin to work out how many promotions might be needed to fill level 6, with 4 extra leagues. 

Counting on my fingers, and I might not have this quite right.

2; Championship; No promotion, No relegation

3: National 1: One up, two down

4: National 2 One up from each league, no relegation, one extra league

5: Regional Premier: Two up from each league, plus 2 best placed third place teams, two extra leagues

6; Regional 1: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams, four extra leagues.

7: Regional 2: Two up from each league, plus 10 best placed third place teams.

As far as I know, the structure at levels 7 and below are still to be determined, with each CB voting whether to admit club second teams into the leagues.

As far as I am aware,

Essex and Leicestershire voted no.

North Midlands and Eastern Counties voted yes.

Just under £1 mil on sorting out 2nd xv rugby " for the good of the game" I was told by a member on the council that they are looking at for costs for this ... another total waste of time and money, but people who do not have a clue

Almost right!  I think it's three up from each league at level 6 & 7, according to this document:

http://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam/4e/4e0b7e4d-cd94-4ab0-a58a-84c4b97ce2f7/Regulation%2013_Dec%2021.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.englandrugby.com//dxdam/4e/4e0b7e4d-cd94-4ab0-a58a-84c4b97ce2f7/Regulation%2013_Dec%2021.pdf

In simple terms this is how it was put to us

- RFU announces new league structure after "alleged" mass consultation and discussion

- RFU then realises "Oops we haven't got enough clubs to fill all the gaps further down the pyramid in which case unwilling clubs get sucked into promotions they don't want and end up doing more travelling which is the exact opposite of what this was all supposed to address

- RFU solution was to invite 2nd XV's into the ECC capped at max Level 7 (to be reviewed in 3 years)

It will certainly work for my club and our region especially for those on the extremities of the North Mids who's 2nd XV's were either having to travel long distances to play or having multiple cry-offs from opposition unwilling to travel. In the season pre-Covid our 2nd XV's travelling to away fixtures was in excess of that done by our semi-pro 1st XV which is absolutely bonkers

Hope that sheds some light - happy to answer any more questions that anyone may have

The number of promotions further down the pyramid will now be clearly affected by how many clubs enter their 2nd XV's and at what level despite what the initial guidelines just posted by MarkW-J may say

. 

A question I have for season 23/24 and thereafter, is " Would clubs still retain some rights to refuse a level transfer " 

I ask this because in the past we have seen teams such as Hinckley and Amphill playing in Kent, and currently North Walsham have two fixtures on the South Coast and vice versa. 

If the whole idea is to make the leagues more regionalised, there could be.  trouble ahead.

Not quite correct Camquin. Eastern Counties did not hold a vote (it was optional), because virtually all the lower XVs in EC are already in the league structure (albeit at L9 and below).

I understand that Middlesex voted no, as did Hertfordshire but not by the 2/3 majority required to take effect. Which all makes for a bit of a muddle in this particular quadrant of the London division.

Meanwhile some clubs are playing their final games of the season with no clarity about what they are aiming for and the kind of calculations that are shown here about numbers being promoted or upgraded could all be thrown into disarray if lots of 2nd XVs appear at L7.

And when you ask the RFU how they are going to ensure that a team that is billed as a 2nd or 3rd XV actually is a 2nd or 3rd XV when they play, there is silence in return.

I bow to your superior knowledge (and tennis prowess).

Given Herts and Mddx run a combined league, how is that going to work?

And of course, Colchester lower teams plays in the Eastern Counties leagues, so is it in Essex or EC?

If I were at the RFU, I would have been asking the Hockey Association and KNHB how they manage, I believe both permit lower XI's in the main pyramid, and I think permit clubs to have two teams in one league.  I know CUCBC fine any college where a lower boat finishes above a higher one in the bumps.

But I think I have already made my views on the reorg once or twice on this board.

These were the reservations made by the clubs lower down the pyramid who were dead against letting 2nd XV's in, the fact that somehow these teams would be "loaded" with "1st teamers". I'm not sure how that could happen?

Clubs at Level 4 will have a 26 game league structure aswell as a requirement for a 20 man match day squad, Clubs at Level 5 26 games, 18 man squad.

Most, if not all clubs, run their 2nd XV's as a development tool for their younger players, not as an additional way of conquering the world! Most Saturdays are designated league Saturdays so both 1sts and 2nds would be playing on the same day and even on the very odd occasion, if any, when they weren't player welfare and family pressures would dictate time off rather than bolstering the 2nd XV.

There was also a fear that certain leagues would be overloaded with 2nd XV 's but my very rough calculations indicate that number would be more likely  be 1 or 2 per league but that is obviously subject to regional variations

The other concern was that there would be mass relegations to accommodate these teams but if my above calculations are correct these fears also appear unfounded. They were also concerned about getting "hammered" every week. Again unlikely I would suggest if the 2nds go in at the right levels. Good 1st team doesn't always translate to good 2nd team by the way, every club is different

Your 1st xv plays team A 

Your 2s play team A 2s 

Your 3s do the same so on so on down the club

If your 1s are away, take the 2s with you, so when you are at home you have both main sides at home as well.

Saves on travel costs.

Think Ill stick an invoice into the RFU for that one .. pretty simple really!!

It worked in the old days I admit but that was before a) Leagues and b) professionalism.

Whilst we're being nostalgic we would always have 1st, 3rds and Colts playing Club A let's say at home whilst 2nds & 4ths would be on a bus away at Club A and vice versa later in the season and it WAS brilliant!

Good luck with the invoice!? 

I think it worked in the mythical past, where summer holidays were three months long and the sky was always blue and England could win at cricket.

As Thatbloke says, in practice it happened a lot less than we remember, for the practical reasons that you could never guarantee clubs had the same number of sides.

Fixture secretaries were on the phone all week searching up a fixture to replace one that had been scratched. And no matter how good your side was, you could never get a fixture against a "senior" club.

Stourbridge/Stourbridge Lions

Birmingham Moseley/Moseley Oak

I don't think there are any more??

Just read RedTed post and fully agree 

Hockey doesn't, obviously, have the same injury rate as rugby, so I'm not sure their system would work.

Agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed on here about the cluster**** the RFU are making of our sport. 

Kent's clubs voted no by 3 votes but because a 2/3 supermajority was needed to block it, Kent will allow 2nd XVs in

Fully agree it should have been a decision to do it (or not do it) across the board so everyone knew where they stood but IF there IS anything our ruling body is good at is pomegranite-footing around, consulting, discussing beyond belief and still getting it wrong is making a total mess of everything they touch

This leaves the whole issue of 2nd team rugby up in the air again so I will be contacting the RFU on behalf of National League Rugby to seek other solutions.

Rugby Union must be the only game whose governing body doesn't think that the first team is only as strong as its seconds. Players don't join a rugby to 'Not Play Rugby'

Esher man contacting the RFU on behalf of NLR. Halliford AKA Mr. Inverdale.

CS Stags 1863 managed to play yesterday, which is good for North Walsham, who move into third, but are now two points behind Blackburn.

Four games to go and lots of rugby to play.

Halliford, you're going to have to wait 3 years before you can talk to them. Remember the FCS "commission" stated that the structure that comes in to place for 22/23 will not be subject to change for 3 years. Otherwise we are going down the Putin School of Politics route............. keep trying to change things until you get want you want.

I'll cite Clifton as an example. A team fighting for promotion to level 3. Their 2s couldn't enter the league system within Somerset so went to Gloucester who accepted them in Gloucester Premier (Level 8). After a flurry of wins, they now sit in 2nd place having lost 3 games. It is not clear that they are going to win a level 8 league!

The reality is that the higher you move up the pyramid the more  injury and availability issues impact first team playing numbers and ultimately impact  your 2nd or 3rd team. If Clifton were South Easterly I'm sure they could pick up fixtures outside of the league, but in the SW that is not the case. 

The league structure provides at the very least a fixture list and that may well be more challenging than first thought.

I know from experience that Cinderford and Taunton whose 2s are not in the pyramid system have struggled to provide rugby for those players leaving weeks without rugby and the prospect of playing the same opposition 4-6 times.

The key here is the fixture list and the access to giving players game time. That is everything.

I know Brockham is a lovely part of the world but I dont reckon he joined for the scenery😂

Along with Henry Birch. Some serious negotiating skills by Dorking getting them both in mid season for nothing 

I know he is/was a CRC for Rural Surrey so wouldn’t be surprised. Interesting model, pay him to coach but he plays for free 

Is Harry Anscombe a coach and occasional  sub as well ?🙄

Its Henry Anscombe. He had unfortunately suffered an injury pre-season which may explain his appearance of late.

Best, Vuarnet 

They have 2 player/coaches + 1 player who does community coaching.

From what i understand Henry Birch didn't see eye to eye with Jordan Turner-Hall.

Hi VUARNET 

Long time no hear!

Hows life in level 6, the forum has died a death in your league, shame as it used to be quite fun?

Anyway... Harry or Henry it'll still say H.Anscombe on his brown envelope😂😂😂

I still look on more in hope than expectation! Hoping to bump into Dickon at season close but you are right , it was a bit of fun and I miss your slant on things, but its actually a white, embossed , envelope....

Best, Vuarnet

my information  came from mr H. Anscombe himself

He used to be  Chichester player and as "Chi" is only 8 miles up the road from us a few of our players know him well and he told them Dorking OUTBID another club for his services!!!

I suggest you ask him next time you see him and let me know if it is just a rumour?

Well said Surrey Rugby. And in our 2nd season at L4 when we were relegated (3rd from bottom) there were other mitigating circumstances. We had a few that moved on as you say, but also had several retire including our excellent now DOR Armand Roux. Additionally the 'eyes' at L4 had watched their videos and were more prepared after our storming 1st season. We also suffered from lots of longish term injuries and fell short in our strength in depth. Not complaining but we are in a much better place now under Armands 'One Club' ethos with a very strong 2nd team knocking on the door and the gap in comparative quality between 1,s and 2,s has narrowed considerably IMO. With the benefit of our club development including a 'Super state of art Gym' with a progressive strength and conditioning regime open to allcomers, it is no surprise to me that DRFC are ready to take up the challenge of L4 rugby again (God willing). In our Centenary Year it would be the most appropriate timing. Hardly surprising we are attracting quality ambitious players from all areas.   
 

100odd mile round trip 3 x a week for zero material benefit, must be some gym!!!

Raider. Is there any truth in the rumour that Messrs Birch, Anscombe, and Spurgeon left Worthing because your DOR upset them and brought in young players from Harlequins Academy whom he favoured. I dont know so I am just asking, but the grapevine of rugby gossip continues to thrive. I am just trying to understand why they left Worthing a L4 club to join Dorking who aspire to be a L4 club again.

Speaking to Worthing players - I understood Henry Anscombe was in and out of the squad (i didnt check up on this with stats) - thus he wasn't content at Worthing and such moved to Dorking. 

I have no idea for the last player? 

Henry birch is player/forwards coach at the club now. After hearing a club at Level 6 pay their head coach £15k a year - i'm sure his role at the club isn't without good remuneration. 

Dorking has a fabulous location, good home support and a stable business set/up. Not to mention first class s&c and physio support. This is not too say Worthing don't, but Dorking does have a very good club set/up for the level that i'm sure attracts players.

Pretty much as I understood the situation. Henry Birch came to us first and as an RFU regional coach he joined us as Forwards coach replacing Matt Higgins as someone has already mentioned. I just didnt know his reason for leaving Worthing, however he may have influenced Anscombe and Spurgeon as they followed soon after. Maybe they had separate unconnected reasons for the move.  

My understanding is that lower league clubs fear that players would rather be part of the set-up at a higher-level club, playing mainly 2nd XV rugby but training with the 1st team squad and with a possibility (however small) of playing national league rugby, than registered with a level 7/8 club.  It might not apply in all areas of the country, but in Middlesex & Surrey - where there are a lot of clubs playing at level 3-6 - it's a worry for the lower clubs who are already struggling to put out a competitive team.

Richmond 4th XV beat the Old Alleynians 1st XV (Level 7) 44-10 back in september so you'd be correct.

Clifton have lost 3 games at level 9!! Level 3 and 4 rugby is clearly very attritional on squad players.

If they are to be admitted, I would say add a new bottom league to the county leagues and stick all the 2nd XVs in there so they don't compete against the smaller clubs until a year later. It's not perfect but at least it delays any mucking up of the system and stops them reaching the regional leagues for at least 3-4 years.

Many will be, which is why it's laughable that they have now introduced a ceiling at L7 so any lower XV entering the ECC will not be able to progress higher than L7 

Many will be, which is why it's laughable that they have now introduced a ceiling at L7 so any lower XV entering the ECC will not be able to progress higher than L7 

And I hope they don't get involved in the RFU cups.