6 into 3 doesn't go!
Printed From: National League Rugby Discussion Forum
Category: League Rugby - www.leaguerugby.co.uk
Forum Name: Regional 1
Forum Description: Discuss the 72 clubs in the fifth level of the English game.
URL: http://www.leaguerugby.co.uk/forum_posts.asp?TID=20271
Printed Date: 05 Nov 2024 at 11:02
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 12.04 - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: 6 into 3 doesn't go!
Posted By: cobbler
Subject: 6 into 3 doesn't go!
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2024 at 18:59
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This is a sphazelnutly used section of the forum, but I thought
I would try to trigger some interest! The Regional One Midlands league already has a “centre of
gravity” well towards the South West of the area covered by the traditional
Midlands Constituent Bodies. Northern teams SKiwifruithorpe and Leek are playing in
the Northern leagues and Eastern teams Bedford Ath, Oundle and ONs are playing
in the South East league. Two teams from Oxfordshire are currently in the
league instead. With one team promoted and two relegated that is three teams
out. Three level 6 leagues feed the league and it looks like Long Eaton
(Derbyshire) although Lichfield could pip them, Silhillians (Warwickshire) and
Nuneaton (Warwickshire) although in theory Lutterworth or Market Harborough
could pip them, will come up. The level 4 Midlands teams all play in N2W and,
guess what, the bottom three places are currently filled by Midlands teams
(Dudley KW, Newport and Bournville). Bourneville could still escape, but if
they do not that is 6 teams trying to go into the Midlands level 5 league. With
most of the incoming sides being close to the Birmingham area (where that “centre
of gravity” roughly sits, I can see 2 or 3 of the more Northerly teams heading
for the Northern leagues (Stoke, Derby and Long Eaton). That wouldn’t be so bad
if the 2 Northern level 5 leagues were split North / South, but the East / West
split of those leagues (chosen presumably due to the M1/A1 and M6 main roads in
the region) means there would be some very long journeys involved. |
Replies:
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2024 at 19:42
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Its a very good point because I forsee similar issues in the South because in South Central Horsham and Bournemouth going down and Havant going up, coming into the league it looks like Jersey, Amersham/Chiltern and Alleynians or Battersea with Wimbledon coming down. Even more complicated is that Royal Wootton Bassett who were in the league last year are also coming up from 2 Severn Given South East seems to be turning into Eastern Counties/South-Midlands (since it seems the RFU don't like paying Dartford Tolls), I guess you may find some of the southern Midlands teams ending up in South East. (Nuneaton being the obvious candidate?)
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2024 at 20:36
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The RFU do retain the right to completely redraw the leagues each year. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2024 at 20:48
Yes I'm aware of that. And rename them accordingly too if necessary! P.S. I took the time to check my spelling and typos but forgot the curse of the team from North Lincs and should have said "infrequently"
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Camquin wrote:Posted By: Glasshouse
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2024 at 22:18
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Could see Stoke move North and Banbury move back to South East to make space for promoted sides and relegated Midlands teams from Level 4? Next team closest to SE is probably Kenilworth as opposed to Nuneaton? So potentially Long Eaton or Stoke to North Banbury to South East Broadstreet & Old Hales relegated Oxford promoted (but to Level 4 East?) Regional 1 Midlands Nuneaton (promoted) Silhillians (promoted) Dudley Ks (relegated) Newport (relegated) Bromsgrove Bridgnorth Derby Burton Stourbridge Syston Kenilworth Long Eaton or Stoke (or Banbury!) |
Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2024 at 22:26
Ah yes I had not seen that SE contains clubs wholly North of the Thames, but yes that league is skewing North Eastwards! North Walsham probably coming down into that league from above. Maybe Syston to shuffle over? We are playing them on Saturday, I might mention that possibility to a few of their guys !!
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Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 02 Apr 2024 at 22:32
So many possibilities! And as pointed out by Robb, there are similar issues in other areas.
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Posted By: Halliford
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 00:01
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As the song said: All we need is a great big melting pot!
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Posted By: WEvans
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 12:15
More like the RFU retain the right to do exactly what they like when they like and bu**er everyone else!
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Posted By: Archangel
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 14:05
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Regional 1 South East which worked very well this season, should have been be relatively simple: Colchester go up to L4 to replace North Walsham coming down, Westcliff & Rochford Hundred go down to L6 with Southend Saxons coming up along with Amersham & Chiltern (very close to Tring etc) ... but that was before they go and lose to Belzise Park! Therefore before it is no doubt changed by our TW masters should look like:
------------- Too old but young enough to learn |
Posted By: Mark W-J
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 15:50
| That's fine in isolation - but if there are lots of Midlands teams at L5 and a big hole across West Sussex, Hampshire and Dorset (as alluded to above) then the boundaries could all be shifted anti-clockwise by 30 degrees to redraw the line of best fit. |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 16:49
Nuneaton is the most central of Midlands rugby clubs (if you accept the newer thinking of Lindley Hall Farm being the centre of England). (And if you don't, and still consider my Gt Grandfather's birthplace, Meriden to be the centre, it's north of that). ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Kimbo
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 16:50
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Double post ------------- Our Club |
Posted By: Golden Jackal
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 17:14
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So do we think the RFU responding to clubs at Lower Levels by flattening the pyramid at the top (i.e 3 Leagues at L4, 8 at L5 etc) has helped our clubs??? To me it seems far more complicated now and for those clubs that "border" other regions it must be very disconcerting... What was wrong with London 1, Nat 2 South, Nat 1 for example...you knew where you stood and the likely distances involved! |
Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 18:04
Well there were always instances in the past of teams being moved away from what might be considered their "natural" league (used to be called level transfers). But with this setup up: 3 L4 leagues - none specifically for midlands 6 level 5 leagues - only one specifically for midlands (i.e. labelled as such) 12 level 6 leagues - 3 specifically for midlands The chances seems to be much higher.
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Posted By: Dagfish
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 18:07
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My understanding was that it is not a case of promotion / relegation between the specific leagues, but completely re-drawing the leagues every year once the 72 teams at Regional 1 level are known. In practice, the leagues may look similar from one season to the next, but in theory they could come up with a completely different geographical split each year. So in reality, looking at how any specific league may look next season is not really a valid proposition until after the end of the season.
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 03 Apr 2024 at 18:51
| Agree with those who point out that a 'whole country' solution is needed at each level, with the total number of clubs divided equally into 3 leagues (at L4), 6 (L5) etc. And some form of rebalancing (via level transfers) will always be something liable to be necessary with a pyramid system, however broad or narrow it is... |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2024 at 07:11
In theory, everything should work out fine like that. But I do suspect there may be issues in Central/SW with Woottoon Bassett returning because in Central it should be Havant up/Wimbledon down and Horsham/Bournemouth down and Jersey/Alleynians or Battersea up. I guess RWB'll just have to fight with Marlborough to decide who goes to Kent and who has to go to Cornwall at the longest trip. (Looking at Google Maps, I think RWB will go SW and Marlborough stay in Central). But, as you say. Its not up to our logic, its the powers that be at Twickers who decide the fate and travel of so many clubs.
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Posted By: Greg
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2024 at 10:41
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Help please. Does anybody know how many teams will be relegated from Level 6 (Regional Anglia 2)? Living in Norwich, my two local clubs - North Walsham and Norwich - are both facing relegation from their respective leagues. North Walsham will certainly be relegated but Norwich might survive if they can win on Saturday - but only if one team is relegated. It's not been a great year over here - Norfolk County Cricket Club were also relegated at the end of their season. Horatio Nelson - your county needs you!
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Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2024 at 11:46
I think according to the RFU's table, it looks like Norwich are out of contention for the "lucky loser" spot. Sorry. https://rfulondon.com/forms/jersey.pdf" rel="nofollow - https://rfulondon.com/forms/jersey.pdf
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Posted By: Greg
Date Posted: 04 Apr 2024 at 14:31
| Thank you Robb for the prompt response. |
Posted By: Not Will Webb Ellis
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2024 at 09:30
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Well! I’ve taken a look at this forum for the first time in a while. Seeing the speculation and the educated guesses I can officially say the system in my opinion is a mess and now my brain hurts.
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Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 06 Apr 2024 at 17:32
I reckon a few of us are viewing or commenting for the first time in a while!
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Posted By: Newt
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 07:16
Same here.  ------------- NEWT is an acronym, it stands for North East Worcestershire Town. My views, not necessarily my Club's |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 07 Apr 2024 at 08:54
| I'm sure the make-up of the leagues for 24/25 will be sorted soon, at least (compared with this time yesterday) it's known who finished in what position. Getting the structure sorted will always be challenging, the glory of sport is not knowing what'll happen in advance, and by the same token it's not scripted which clubs from which part of an area will go up or down once the music's stopped, hence the need to balance it all out at the end of the season: a necessary but sometimes complex process... |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 02 May 2024 at 15:32
| I just hope they get the new leagues out sooner rather than later. Even if its just to announce which teams are where (but the fixtures will be a bonus!) |
Posted By: tigerburnie
Date Posted: 02 May 2024 at 17:09
The centre of England and indeed the planet is in Leicestershire, thought everyone knew that.....................
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Posted By: Archangel
Date Posted: 02 May 2024 at 18:51
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So as Syston is in Leicestershire makes (RFU) sense they will go the L1SE instead of Nuns! Though Banbury & Kenilworth remain outside bets. North Walsham now in that league does change the shape and mileage somewhat ------------- Too old but young enough to learn |
Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 03 May 2024 at 19:48
Yes I think that is quite likely, along with Stoke going North and maybe one other "natural" Midlands sides possibly going North. No doubt the RFU computer, along with Google Maps, is working out the best options for all 6 level 5 leagues as we we discuss it.
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Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 03 May 2024 at 20:15
Not to mention we also have the fight between Royal Wooton Bassett and Marlborough scrapping over who goes to Kent in R1SC and who goes to Cornwall in R1SW.
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Posted By: FHLH
Date Posted: 04 May 2024 at 00:33
I was trying to picture a time with Aspatria, Wharfedale, Tynedale, N Walsham, Mounts Bay & Blackheath in the same league - would put the computer into meltdown. Must be a bit like Premiership travel ------------- "My father told me big men fall just as quick as little ones, if you put a sword through their hearts." |
Posted By: Archangel
Date Posted: 06 May 2024 at 18:04
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The (Southern) Prem doesn't go North much though these days! ------------- Too old but young enough to learn |
Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 06 May 2024 at 19:32
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Ok, let me throw this into the mix! Having just been relegated from Nat2(West) we were looking forward to returning to Regional rugby and some local derbies with old friends and without the horrendous travel and overnight stay costs that rugby at that level brings (circa £60k). Whilst not yet officially confirmed it transpires that we will be placed in Level 5 North West so from 2 years travelling down to Cornwall we will be required to travel to Penrith, Kendal, Blackburn & Rossendale to name just four. How can this be right? The problem is that whenever there is a shortfall in North, South or West it is inevitably the Midlands clubs who get the thin end of the wedge and are shifted around to fill the gaps. The sooner we move to 4 leagues at Level 4 and 8 at Level 5 the better. Oh the standards will drop blah, blah I hear you say but I suspect probably not given that players will generally be available for an hour/hour and a half away trip but not for games that might take up a whole weekend. 4 league winners at Level 5 play off for 2 promotion places in Nat2 (Winners North v Winners Midlands and ditto South/South East. To refer to the title of the thread - No 6 into 3 doesn't go but 8 into 4 most definitely does and makes a lot more sense. Wake up RFU!
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Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 07 May 2024 at 09:39
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Nobody liked the old system of two leagues at level 4, four at L5 and eight at level L6. Just
cutting out one level leaves most teams back in the same leagues they
were, so it is not clear it is better. It certainly would not resolve
the issues around the Manchester clubs not wanting to visit Cumberland. Having three, six, twelve did not really reduce travel, and actually meant more sides were travelling. And the cup has introduced even more mileage for lower level teams. I
suggested a pattern of three, then nine and twenty-seven, which would
have had a lot fewer sides travelling outside their county, but would
require a lot of administrative upheaval. But
the pattern cannot solve the problem of numerical mismatches, and you
cannot expect the relegated teams to split equally between the lower
divisions. There are only two solutions. Either
you transfer teams between leagues, and I know the RFU says there are
no transfers, they simply redraw the boundaries, but the effect is the
same and the same teams tend to get reallocated. Or,
you can enforce strict geography, and change the number of teams
relegated to maintain numbers, a system that has been used in the past
and was equally unloved. As the sides in the lower half of a league do
not know what they need to do not to be relegated, as between three and
five sides can drop. One thing I would say, is that this is not something that can be solved on the back of the proverbial fag packet. You
actually need to set out what you want to achieve, what compromises you
are prepared to accept, and properly model that whole of the pyramid to
see how close you can come. It is not helped by some clubs wanting games for their second XV, and other refusing to play lower sides. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: Dad
Date Posted: 08 May 2024 at 17:46
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If you think you have it bad look at women's rugby, where there is no promotion / relegation to prem and champ 1 is split into North & South Currently Cheltenham Tigers have been placed in Champ North and have won it by a mile. That league plays on a Sunday usually and ranges from Cheltenham and Buckingham in the south to novacastrians and Bishop Auckland in the NE. That is a 250mile 5 hr journey back after a game on Sunday before work on a Monday for £0
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Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 09 May 2024 at 11:04
Was there a leak?
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 09 May 2024 at 11:56
| I would prefer to call it a "tip-off"! |
Posted By: Camquin
Date Posted: 09 May 2024 at 12:14
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Leek stayed up, it was Sandbach and Northwich that were relegated. ------------- Sweeney Delenda Est |
Posted By: NorthernMag
Date Posted: 09 May 2024 at 17:58
| Leagues are out |
Posted By: cobbler
Date Posted: 09 May 2024 at 20:46
Yes I have just seen a set of teams in Regional 1 Midlands (from a reliable source) that excluded Stoke and Newport, so presumably both have gone to North West. You have listed 4 teams that are a good distance away, but the others are all not too far (certainly not far from Stoke, a bit more from Newport). Fortunately for Derby and Long Eaton it was the North West league that was short of teams not the North East. Alnwick, Blaydon and Percy Park would have been 3 very long trips.
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Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 09 May 2024 at 22:06
Where?
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Posted By: NorthernMag
Date Posted: 10 May 2024 at 08:10
| Was shared by North Rugby yesterday evening |
Posted By: Robb
Date Posted: 10 May 2024 at 09:41
This? https://twitter.com/NORTHRUGBY1/status/1788645613749342548" rel="nofollow - https://twitter.com/NORTHRUGBY1/status/1788645613749342548 ? The only thing that I notice is that it says it's not an official RFU page
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Posted By: Thatbloke
Date Posted: 10 May 2024 at 11:38
| I have a list of all leagues down to Level 6.Pm me with your mobile number and I will forward via WhatsApp (refuses to send via email) |
Posted By: HAVANT TONY
Date Posted: 10 May 2024 at 17:48
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Just heard that we are in NAT2 EAST there was talk of us going West but thank God that didn't happen I pity the Camborne v Macclesfield game 11hr round trip I believe..crazy🤪.......Macclesfield WTF !
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Posted By: Ramsale2
Date Posted: 10 May 2024 at 22:06
| Please refer to the west post. @Rothman has been doing some initial calculations |
Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 11 May 2024 at 07:45
| If true, it is pretty incredible that Macc would travel to Camborne (324m) but not Chester (33.4) |
Posted By: Sid James
Date Posted: 11 May 2024 at 09:23
Agreed, but as the leagues have to be 14 clubs each, who should go West or East from the North rather than Macc? ------------- All Knwoing All Seeing |
Posted By: Redted
Date Posted: 11 May 2024 at 12:58
I would suggest that Maccs overall travel miles will still be no worse and probably less than Redruth & Cambornes.
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Posted By: islander
Date Posted: 11 May 2024 at 14:45
Lots of people have been discussing this in recent weeks; I'm not saying I have a better option/ ideal solution. I guess the near-neighbours may take each other on during pre-season?
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