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And have they asked Wasps FC? I know some people think what LW did was heinous and not in the spirit of taking their punishment but it's a completely different situation.

Aside from the legal separation, LW was always an 'all of one club' operation - where the weekly email to supporters covered the doings of the Occies, Dragons, Druids, M&Js just as much as the 1st XV. Until the three year Oxford 'adventure' they were all playing out of the same clubhouse and on the same pitch. Even during the sojourn in Oxford it was pretty much the same faces at all the matches of all the sides, and on the committees in the clubhouse.

So, when LW 1st XV imploded they did go 'home' to lick their wounds and tbh it made complete sense for the operation to just make the amateurs the first XV and go again - there was no real sense of them being separate clubs anyway, except legally - and that legal separation in hindsight was a great move.

Wasps, on the other hand, have really nothing AIUI more than the most vestigial links with the amateur set-up and those are links of sentiment, rather than because there's any training or anything like that going on at Twyford Avenue. So it really would be a cynical takeover of another club, and more importantly a takeover that said club would have to be on board with, as they're perfectly entitled to say no. FWIW the general temperature from Wasps supporting friends is that Wasps FC are quite happy as they are and wouldn't go for it (see also Worcester FC).

LW on the other hand were a real genuine family of clubs - not clubs that happened to share a name and somehow both claim the same history.

isn't it just?

I could have boiled it down to:

LW = 'bad luck boys, welcome back to ODP, been a shame waving you off to matches every week for the last three years, and it was always a bit silly, but you're us and we're you - we're all back where we belong and we'll work something out'

Wasps = 'oh, we've gone bust, where's the telephone?- hello, Wasps FC? Thirty years ago we used to be you, so we want your league place, thanks in advance'

Great summary mate. The only critical point missing imo is that LW only went to Oxford to comply with the RFU's daft ground standards which no one wants and no one can afford. LW would probably have struggled in the premiership anyway but the move to Oxford was the likely major cause of the financial mess. LW could have had a season in the premiership and rejoined level two the following year. The core issue keeps coming back to the RFU's adherence to standards which have nowt to do with safety but everything to do with ring fencing the premiership. 

I know whereof I speak - huge soft spot for LW. 

Grew up a Moseley fan, moved away, drifted away from rugby. LW pitching up in Oxford got me back into watching rugby regularly again, and helped me find my way back to Moseley where I belong. 

I think I've said before on here that I'd never been to Mose since the Reddings, and then went to Mose away with LW, in the Championship season between the two premiership ones, and I walked into the clubhouse on the Common, saw the pictures on the walls, the Internationals board, the cartoon of Sam Doble in his record breaking points year, and a thought hit me like a Proustian train - 

'Oh god, I'm supporting the wrong side.' 

Prodigal son stuff.

So I received those LW weekly emails for three years!

You don't have to formally take them over, just pump money into them to buy better players etc. 

It won't even have to be be a formal takeover like Stourbridge/Worcester. Indeed all the London Welsh currently in Regional 1 South Central did was request they be allowed to play under the London Welsh name rather than London Welsh Amateur. Wasps FC don't even have to do that (unless they want to have their wasp the wrong way round!)

So many clubs have gone to the wall and the RFU seem to have given Wasps some time to get their house in order. If they'd been sent to Level 10 immediately, then alternative proposals across the Leven 3-10 leagues could have been made for a 12 team Championship.

I don't know why you've got such an issue with what happened at London Welsh.  The Amateurs were already playing at L9, and they were very much a part of the club, the same at the Women, Occies, M&J - we truly are one big happy family.  So when the pro team went out of existence, the Amateurs became the most senior team within the club, and effectively inherited the mantle of '1st XV'.  That meant we rebuilt from L9 - one level higher than the bottom of the pyramid.  The way you bang on about it, you'd think we'd taken over a L5 team and moved them into ODP just to save ourselves five years of travelling around public parks with dog mess for goalposts.

Probably because when Richmond and London Scottish were in the top division, their amateur teams were restricted to merit leagues. So, even though their amateurs possibly were at a higher standard, they restarted at level 10.

I only went to ODP once, and the facilities were fine. Yes the main clubhouse is a way away from the pitch, I assume due to the cricket square, but there were food and drink outlets, and toilets by the main stand. The welcome on the pitch was not that friendly - it was a no quarter asked or given cup tie -  but off the pitch it was fine.

Speaking as an outsider - LW has always come across as one club. Other clubs spout that as a mantra all the time but don’t mean it. Their renaissance has been exemplary.

On the subject of ODP I’d like to string up the Park committee that thought it best to leave there in 1956 to leasing a single pitch from a golf club. If nothing else it shows that terrible decisions are nothing new in rugby club governance. 

It's not an issue with them at all, its just the example I use of what can happen when a pro side goes bust and their amateur arm (that for RFU purposes is a legally separate club) is already playing at a reasonable standard so they avoid starting at the bottom.

The merry go round of London club grounds. Roehampton (I always think Tennis, rather than Golf) was described as the "finest ground in London" when you moved, so you were up scaling, where as London Welsh were expanding from one pitch at Herne Hill to two at ODP.

Always enjoyed my visits to ODP, even if we didn't get the results wanted.

Fair enough - sorry if I'm a bit defensive!

I was presented with a 'Long Service Award' by the Supporters' Club at the end of season awards last week, and I was born about 15 years after we left Herne Hill.  So I'm impressed that a) you saw us playing there and b) you're so tech-savvy in your old age!

Less of the old age please, Mr Lowe is very spritely, especially the right elbow.

And yes John is very tech savvy. A stalwart of our club, and still organises the away trips for the supporters coach 👏

If you look at the public records available at Companies House you will find that Wasps were, frankly, committing financial suicide. Amongst a plethora of other debts, how on earth Compass, a global catering/infrastructure services provider allowed them to build up over £7m in debt is staggering; Wasps management must have been spinning yarns! 

Wasps was not a business, it was a car crash waiting to happen; run by self licking lolly pops, paying over the odds for players and fan zones etc, basically in a big “I am” environment. Their behaviour was not, in any way, influenced by the RFU….they created their own manure show. Loyal supporters have been defrauded, it was never going to work! 

De facto, each club signs up to the RFU Regulations through their membership. There should be no reason to challenge a “regulated” decision, particularly if the results of fiscal ineptitude predicate being bounced to the bottom of the ladder. At the end of the day, any expectation by an individual member of the Union to be treated differently is for the birds. Given, I can hear the jingle of key boards typing, “well what about so and so”.

I absolutely sympathise with all of those impacted by the poor management of clubs. Keep in mind there are clubs at the bottom, and throughout the pyramid, that are better run, from a business perspective, than those that have gone to the wall owing tens of millions - you cannot argue facts. At the end of the day why should the Union, which is ALL member clubs, fund those that are poorly managed, operating with a beer income and champagne taste.

I do agree that The RFU and the other stakeholders are being belligerent, and need to see sense, around relegation from and promotion in to, the Premier League. I suggest though, that this, being used by broken clubs, as an excuse for their pheonix plan failing, is not the “Union of Clubs” fault.

Finally, I would be exceptionally peed off if “our” money was burnt in grants to dreams.

Being in support of the RFU position, in this case, I  await with bated breath for any reaction; if you disagree with my sentiments, please visit Companies House and take a look at the Administrator’s reports for both Wasps and Worcester.

Thanks Kimbo

I really do like London Welsh, a great club with a great history and what happened to you was awful but it has given many community clubs the chance to play against one of the great historic clubs in our game. Sorry if it appears like i'm angry or resentful about what happened because I assure you, that is not the case.

1) Failure to monitor the financial goings-on at the top level - it's no use bringing in conditions for clubs that have gone bust to be readmitted at the top level when those remaining carry on with minimal interference

2) Taking so long with both Worcester and Wasps to implement their own set of rules and attempting to argue they were a "special case" 

Agreed BE

Leicester have needed a directors loan to cover liabilities and Exeter had to sell an interest in a hotel. Both these clubs are lauded as success stories with big crowds making them sustainable. If these two are struggling the  the others must be in a perilous state. 

How long can this current setup exist for? 

If England flop at this world Cup (highly likely) and the appetite to buy tickets for £120+ each at Twickenham diminishes I think professional rugby becomes seriously endangered in England.

It sounds a bit dramatic but some action needs to be taken. I'm intrigued at what the conclusion will be from the new RFU/Prem rugby player contract.

Any thoughts?

There may be a domino effect as other owners belatedly throw in the towel.

Plus he travels by time-machine!

The RFU have continuously shown themselves to be a bunch of incompetent clowns but you are absolutely correct in what you say here.

However had the incompetent clowns not proposed awarding a club with no ground, no players and little else other than a huge sense of self-importance a Championship place in the first place they might just have made themselves look slightly less incompetent. 

Why??

It is a tough one, their circumstances were very different to Wasps, but I can't help a feeling of deja-vu about them.

A bloke turned at Rugby Lions with big ideas, recruited Neil Back, who recruited a load of players, turns out the bloke had no money at all and Backy ended up paying the players wages for them. Wonder why no-one in the games administrators do not know what is going on outside of the M25, indeed have any of them ever been outside of it?

https://demo.thisischip.com/?q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/05/20/wasps-handed-sensational-lifeline-premiership-rfu/&o=reddit" rel="nofollow - https://demo.thisischip.com/?q=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2023/05/20/wasps-handed-sensational-lifeline-premiership-rfu/&o=reddit

It is beyond disappointing 

What utter bollards. 

No club is bigger than the game. 

Are they then saying London Welsh and every other club that have been through similar were just not important and not needed and they didn't give a damn

Where else has there been anything about franchising for either Prem 1 or Prem 2? 

We are responding to an article by a respected rugby journalist in a respected newspaper. I think it highly unlikely that this article would be published without very substantial and conclusive supporting evidence. However, personally I would normally give any reasonably respected institution the benefit of the doubt ……. but we are talking about the RFU and they are neither reasonable nor respected

Guess it is conjecture at this point in time, so fingers crossed that is all it is.

Agree BE. Article in full below for those who couldn't access. Important to stress this 'sensational lifeline' (and yes, the paper are hyping their exclusive a bit there, but I don't blame them) doesn't relate to next season...

One has to ask, if the RFU knows of a Billionaire willing to invest several millions into rugby, why are they not looking to get him to sponsor level 2?

Also, if rugby is uninvestable, who is to blame?

It is not up to the RFU to save Wasps RFC - it is their job to save rugby.

...both PRL and the RFU see the Wasps brand and their supporter base as key to growing the success and status of a rebranded Championship. ...Wasps could be offered the opportunity to apply for a franchise once the new leagues have “become established." “We need brands like Wasps and Worcester in the Championship and there must be a way in the medium term to bring them back more quickly by restructuring the championship to refranchise them in the right place in the country,” said one senior Premiership source. Another senior source said: “We need strong brands to make Prem 2 viable.”

How long will it take for these new leagues to "become established"?  Five years?  Ten years?

And whereabouts would be "the right place in the country" for a Wasps franchise to turn up/infest (with their supporter base in tow)?

Let us all be clear …. this latest development and all the circumstances that are set out in the leading article by Nick Cain in today’s Rugby Paper …. lay bare the clear and obvious indifference, and negligent disregard that the RFU, its senior executives and the RFU Executive Council appear to have for every level of club rugby below the Premiership. The Executive Council do not appear to have exercised any oversight…. because if they had they all would have resigned many years ago. I am sure there are good people on the RFU Executive Council but as a collective they haven’t done the job they were elected to do.

The RFU’s Executive Management and its craven lickspittle enablers otherwise known as the RFU Council will be remembered for presiding over the demise of the sport it is meant to administer. 

Just shameful 

As it was being discussed back then, the idea was that the top tiers would be matched up so that the T2 clubs act as feeders/academies for the T1s and they share financial burdens/profits. Of course, that requires a very special balance of membership so that these things fit geographically. However much of a conspiracy theorist one might be, I don't think you can point to any deep-state manipulation here (though for my own personal conspiracy-theorising, the sudden change from a Richmond-Quins loanee arrangement to a massively expanded Scottish-Quins arrangement does also look like very good timing, as does the last-minute survival of Scottish - but that is just the sour grapes talking.

Anyway, the NCA meeting tomorrow will make for interesting feedback, especially if Nat 1 clubs suddenly discover that there may not be any promotion to T2 next season (or any season after that). 

I really wish the scriptwriters of this awful comedy-drama would take a few months off. 

We are certs, we played in Black and Gold and went bust... Aren't they the criteria? 

Well let's not forget it was the RFU who allocated a club with no ground no players and no morals a place in the Championship just a few weeks ago before (temporarily?) withdrawing it so dishing out places to a few franchises shouldn't present them with much of a problem.

With proximity, will Bedford, Ampthill and Wasps fight for franchise

1. stadium mk, relegation hit MK Dons need new income (Wasps preferred)

2. Luton, with The Hatters moving a franchise opportunity arises at Kenilworth Road, expected to be Ampthill and Bedford combined. RFU desires to reduce tier 2 to 10 franchises. Why does an insignificant County like Bedfordshire have two clubs, our RFU proposal brings major rugby to the largest town in the county.

3 Cambridge historic tourist trap, special dispensation will see this franchise play its home games from March to October. RFU spokesperson says if US citizens will pay that much for four ice creams, we can bring them to a Rugby match on July 4th.

othe4 Franchises to be confirmed including an exciting Gibraltar opportunity….

While the Europa Stadium does have a 10,000 capacity, it already has four home clubs and Gibraltar comes under a different union.

So were Wasps to play there, their players would become rock apes within three years, and Gibraltar would suddenly climb the IRB rankings.

An RFU spokesperson commented "Caldy have shown us how to grow crowds for rugby union and we believe by providing them with the North of England franchise that we can probably add another five million rugby union followers during the next couple of seasons" the RFU spokesperson added that rugby infrastructure in the North of England was to be boosted by the addition of 100,000 benches to be distributed across the North of England, which will enable one in twenty five spectators to be seated in modest comfort. 

The share price of Unilever Plc (makers of Bombay Bad Boy pot noodles) rose 5% on the news

Wasps already have connections within Milton Keynes. The city is in the Wasps DPP.

So some of this isn't so far fetched 

That is totally unbelievable Big Eddie. The RFU would never give Caldy the North of England franchise. They don't know where Caldy is.

Debtor Payments Postponed?

WEvans what I think you mean't to say is that the RFU "don't want to know where Caldy is"

The professional game is in a total mess financially and doesn't have a suitable business model.......the trouble is that the RFU's total alignment with the Premiership will drag the whole sport down.

If the RFU have ever stepped back to consider the impact on the wider game they have failed to communicate it to us .........I have no solution as to how to get out of the mess that a previous RFU CEO created. starting again may be the only option

  very good.

I'm thinking of the Pathway.

Buckinghamshire rugby is/was part of the Wasps Pathway

Indeed Eddie. I have said for some time the best thing in the long-term for English rugby (all of it) would be for the vast majority of Premiership clubs to fold.

Same thing surely?

Curious to know what your reasons for this are, do you believe there are other clubs to step into their place and maintain the supply of England players who could contest or even win a World Cup?

I am Welsh Tigerburnie so the England national team is of little consequence to me but I do care deeply about Club rugby in England.

He's just about to go the same way Wasps did by the looks of it 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/england-london-customs-hmrc-b2335590.html" rel="nofollow - https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/england-london-customs-hmrc-b2335590.html

I think it is clear TV companies will pay for top level club rugby - whatever clubs are involved. Minor clubs like Exeter, Worcester, Bristol coming into the league has not diluted it.

It is also clear that there are clubs willing to step up to the Premiership - including but not limited to Ealing, Jersey and Doncaster.

At some point, the amount being spent by English clubs needs to come into line with their income, which - and given the proportion of expenditure that goes on salaries, does mean lower salaries - and that has to happen whichever clubs are in the top division. Otherwise, more clubs will go bust.

There is no evidence that the Premiership clubs have better governance than any others.

I hope for your sake that's a slip of the keyboard! Unless this is like Blackadder and the 'only two of those are great universities' gambit and you're trying to unmask a German spy....

I also think you'll emerge relatively unscathed - since they finally made it back up to the promised land there have been far fewer Bris fans at large on here!

Well this is interesting. Exeter were never in the top tier, then subsequent to scaling the exalted heights of the Premiership, they win both that competition and the European Cup. But to you they are a minor club. 

Depends which way the cash is going.

I really couldn't give an ess aitch eye tee about England, sorry.

Old news, but yes if there's any justice. Pri ck.

Exile

Exeter were a minor club, of course they aren't now.

But if there were equal access to funding, there is nothing stopping other clubs from having a similar rise.

But, of course, there isn't, so there won't be.

That's  rather naïve, do you really think someone came up and gave Exeter a bag of dosh, I don't know the ins and outs, but they might just have had a plan that worked. I have given up defending the PRL, they stink, but this rather juvenile jealousy of everything Premiership at times is getting embarrassing. Nobody gives business money any more, if you want to follow London Welsh and over stretch yourselves, go ahead, but I have a sneaking suspicion those running Cambridge for example are not expecting a sudden influx in dosh because they've been promoted. Someone will be working hard, looking for sponsors to see how they can manage their budget, I suspect all the clubs promoted will be doing the same.

They are all vanity projects in one way or another.

My club are at level 8. If we had a sugar daddy (and unbelievably we have had offers from some very odd characters) pumping in 100k each season we would literally fly up the leagues. But after paying rugby journeymen and disenfranchising the community players we would be an empty carcass when the sugar daddy departs. A quite familiar tale I suspect.

The ones inside the cartel have access, but to use rugby as if it were something different is wrong, people start businesses without access to big money, unless they go on Dragons Den, they have to come up with a plan. Medium sized businesses have to expend within their limits or go under. Rugby is a business just the same as running a factory or a shop. Those big businesses who make £millions are not going to allow a smaller business threaten their position, they either buy them up(if perceived a threat) or just ignore them. It's no use a Championship or National league club being envious of what the Premiership has got, they will only loan out players as it suits them and that's it, why? Well they are a business and are trying to make money. Elon Musk is unlikely to give me a few £squillions just because he should to help me out, highly unlikely that Leicester Tigers are going to do anything to help out Leicester Lions either, they might dr some players to help out the Tigers, any benefit to the Lions will be accidental.

The RFU are supposed to be looking after the community game, but they aren't, the PRL are not doing a very good job of looking after Premiership either. It's a mess and if you take Dayglo's "too big a Franchise to be demoted" club as an example, I don't think they have ever been a viable business from the day the game went pro, they have been spending money they don't have, run the credit card up to the limit, we know that is a time to stop, but it seems pro sport(and soccer is worse look at their finances and debt) don't.

It should not come as a surprise that the self serving RFU and PRL are hanging onto the money, National league clubs used to get help with travel costs, look what happened to that.

We are not dealing with a sporting fraternity here, we are dealing with business, as they said in the "Godfather" it's not personal, ruthless. Wasps are saying, or more likely Dalaglio is saying you cannot demote them, yet only a couple of years ago clubs were getting relegated, Leicester Tigers came close twice, but I don't remember any words then about a club being too big too fall. Most of this has the nasty smell of Dalaglio all over it, or his leg ends. Northampton, Harlequins, Newcastle, Bristol, Worcester, all went into the Championship and all returned. Did Bristol have access to money during their seasons in the Championship, before returning, no one stopped them.

If a Championship club had the necessary structure to reach the criteria(which I don't think all of it is fair), like Doncaster for instance and they top the league they should go up. How they will manage financially is something I have no  knowledge of.

In 2004/05, National 1 got £75,000 (c.£100k at today's rate) which was due to be cut to £nil but later phased out to £50k, then £25k. One of the cut off issues was that the £75,000 funding was contingent on certain facilities being available including seating etc the problem of course was that infrastructure was necessary to meet the criteria and so that investment had to be paid for either through loans or enhanced fundraising / sponsorship. Cutting funding from £75,000 pounds to nil was just foolish and put clubs' finances under pressure. Even the phased reduction caused issues but a solution could be managed.

What the Telegraph story seems to indicate is the the RFU and PRL are self satisfying with little or no consideration for rugby as a game at it's roots. In the past I have defended the PRL and blamed the RFU, it would seem they are intertwined and both as guilty as each other in neglecting the game as a whole in pursuit of cash. No idea if the new proposals for 24/25 will be genuine attempt to put right the wrongs, but my confidence in them is lower than a Rattle Snakes belly tight now.

I also don't see supplying players good enough to win a World Cup as being the primary reason English rugby exists. I see rugby as a sport which needs to be properly run by a governing body that is interested in all the clubs in the country and wants to see them and the sport flourish into the future.

We need the top-level of rugby in this country to be sustainable and if this means it has to become semi-professional then so be it. From this (and from players who may decide to go overseas) we can select an England team. If this isn’t good enough to seriously challenge for a World Cup then so be it.

Above all we need the top level of club rugby in this country to be sustainable and to provide a legitimate meaningful competition and not one where the main focus is how many will fall by the wayside before the season ends. Of course we also need a top-level league where you can’t “win” trophies by cheating and can’t continue to “win” them on the back of years of cheating but that’s a different discussion.  

So to finally answer your main question (and apologies for the length of time it’s taken to get here) I believe the only way we can get to the above is for the majority of the Premiership clubs to fold thus forcing a total re-construction of top level rugby in England. 

Setting aside who is and who isn't a minor club I think you are right but only to a point. TV companies will pay for top level rugby (as they do now) but they won't pay very much and there seems to be a great reluctance from those running the game to understand this. They have been banging on about "growing the game" for years seemingly in the hope that this will lead to organisations throwing money at them for the broadcasting rights as happens in football yet it hasn't happened and it won't. Quite simply aside from international rugby there isn't the interest. 

Camquin wrote: There is no evidence that the Premiership clubs have better governance than any others.

But there is much evidence that other clubs have better governance than Premiership ones.

Whilst I agree in principle, where does the RFU, Twickenham, Member Clubs and CVC fit in? I can't see CVC losing £200m - what security do they hold over TW1 assets. I believe the ground is owned by the member clubs but am happy to be disabused on that.

I'm not sure we could find anyone suitable to run RFU without going back to Francis Baron or his ilk.

Enter Big Eddie's friend stage right.