It is the Great Schism of 1895 all over again, when 22 of the clubs in the north formed the Northern Union, which eventually became the Rugby League. That also was due to a disagreement with the RFU but at that time it was over the right to pay 'broken time' to players who gave up work time to play rugby.

 Well done Lancashire.  It idea was mocked in 1895 and it is already being mocked in 2018. 

 It will at least make the 'blazers' at Twickenham sit up and take notice.

Not until we have a poll on Rolling Maul with almost 100 votes and 20,000 views...

Lancashire Clubs resigning from the RFU

English Clubs Championship

Aldwinians

Ashton under Lyne

Birchfield

Bury

Burnley

Clitheroe

Didsbury Toc H

Eagle

Eccles

Garstang

Heaton Moor

Littleborough

Liverpool Collegiate

Liverpool St. Helens

Manchester Medics

North Manchester

Oldham

Ormskirk

Thornton Cleveleys*

Trafford MV

Tyldesley

West Park St. Helens

Widnes

Wigan

* Joining from the NW Intermediate Leagues

If it don't work I doubt the RFU will refuse any Club wanting to rejoin the RFU Leagues. If its a success then who knows............

Some of the detractors have sited "lack of ambition not to progress within the RFU Leagues", quite a few in the above list who have "lived the dream" and nearly lost the family silverware. It's mentioned more than once on these pages that unless your ambition = a massive bank account / sugar daddy / shrewd financial management then the "nouveau riche" good times normally bring a rapid descent to the bad times. Not saying that applies to all but it only takes a Millionaire backer to choke on his Foie Gras and you are left wondering how your going to pay you next bill!

Good luck next season to every Club in and out of the RFU Leagues, getting to this stage of the season still in business regardless of your results is an achievement. 

As far as I understand, the Lancashire RFU League is outside the pyramid, therefore you cannot be promoted from those leagues. 

From the Lancashire RFU web site

A meeting held at Wigan RUFC on 2nd May has resulted in 24 Lancashire Clubs proposing to resign from the RFU English Clubs Championship.
At  the  behest  of several  clubs a 2 league  structure has been developed to accommodate these clubs and assist them in playing more local rugby against clubs within Lancashire RFU.
Lancashire RFU have not coerced clubs, we have only provided a conduit to what clubs asked us to help with.

The clubs who  intend to  resign  are  all either level 7, 8 & 9. There  will  be promotion/relegation between these two leagues but not out of them as they lie outside the RFU structure.

These ‘Lancashire Leagues’ for club First XVs will be deemed by the RFU to be of Merit table format and therefore clubs will:

• Retain either their voting or none voting membership of the Union.

• Be held accountable to the Rules & Regulations of the RFU

• Covered by insurance policies put in place for all clubs in the Union.

• Be eligible to apply for any funding streams available to all clubs within the Union without prejudice.

• Be eligible for assistance from area & local RFU staff.

An organising  committee of 5 members from the clubs  involved has been formed and they will set down regulations for the league going forwards. Clubs will also be Subject To  the same disciplinary  regulations  as for  all clubs in  the  Union, locally  under the jurisdiction of the Lancashire Disciplinary Committee.

As a  Constituent  Body  of the  RFU Lancashire  will  continue  to support all our clubs whether in the Lancashire leagues or remaining in the RFU English Clubs Championship in the same equitable manner.

David Herriman Chairman

Mark Downs Hon. Secretary

Dunno - maybe you should ask them?

Only a proposal up North so far?

 

Makes perfect sense then the CRFU could then add 2nd teams to the Cornwall Leagues and the top team could be promoted to Western Counties West (providing they were a 1st team).  You would get a similar standard of competition with minimal travelling.

I've been promoting this idea for years but if falls on deaf ears unfortunately.

 

Yes because Clubs on the Wirral aren't arrogant one bit. Enjoy playing Wallasey every three weeks.

So the County needs the best possible structure for the teams within it's boundary's.  To my mind that means all playing all as we used to do before leagues, local competition was strong and playing numbers were high.  As Surrey Ben says 2nd team rugby is very poor as the teams have few teams to play within a sensible travelling distance, if you travel to Devon and play the Devon teams always renege on the return fixture.

So I would dismantle the Cornwall & Devon league, putting the teams into their respective county divisions.  I would then incorporate the 2nd teams into the county league structure this would provide more matches for the 2nd teams, less miss-matches as we could have 3 divisions instead of 2.

Top 1st team to Western Counties if they wish to be promoted. 

This would also revive 2nd team fixtures against the local junior clubs, a welcome return to tradition.

I certainly see where you are coming from Redted - definitely - the query I have is just how realistic this would be in terms of so few clubs having enough players. Several teams in Cornwall One and Two struggle to put out fifteen players each week.  Realistically its only Camborne, Launceston and St. Austell who regularly field a 2nd XV. The issue with Colts rugby is serious - many clubs have totally disbanded their Colts sides. Whilst Cornwall did reach the final of the U20s County Championship, the issue is that players are leaving rugby after U16s in large numbers, potentially because of going upcountry for college/university and then become involved out of Cornwall with the game. Clubs in Cornwall One and Two are considering how sustainable their futures are right now. The CRFU also blocked Camborne's 2nd XV from joining the Cornwall Leagues (Level 9/10) a couple of years ago as well, so that would also have to be overcome.

Some areas have far more 2nd 3rd and even 4th teams in the leagues - Somerset, Dorset&Wilts and BBO

The quoted reason was the travel time to Cumbria - but most of the sides did not travel to Cumbria.

They also quoted travel times of three hours - which seems excessive, even for a coach from Salford to Aspatria.

And of course, while the Lancastrian clubs went to Cumbria 4 times, the Cumbrian clubs drove south 10 times. And they had long journey times across the County.

Ironically a lot of those trips took the M6 A66 and went past Penrith - who had been transferred  East.

But if you have 16 leagues at level 7 - then each covers 3100 sq mi on average.

But people and clubs are not evenly spread.

The only way to reduce travel for the majority is to have more leagues in a wider flatter pyramid.

But that means bigger jumps between leagues.

And a huge amount of work to throw away the current divisions and potentially CBs and start again.

Especially as there is no guarantee more clubs will end up happier than they are now.

It appears that the vocal minority that wanted less travel has come to a local "solution" - so there should be less pressure to change the rest of the structure.

The Cumbrian, and SLC 2&3 leagues are down to 8 sides and will play each other 3 times.

With one Manx team in each SLC league - 4 Lancashire clubs in each league get two trips a year to the Isle of Man. 

SLC 2&3 will be amalgamated if any more clubs withdraw.

As far as I can tell the breakaway clubs are utterly against payment. 

One of their complaints was that the RFU was not going far enough.

I wonder if the RFU had dropped the restriction of only two leagues feeding into one and had separate Cumbrian, Lancashire and Cheshire leagues whether it would have stopped the winging. 

Not sure where Manx teams fit. I am told you can see Ramsey from Whitehaven - though it tends to be lost in the haze when I visit the in-law. The ferry is from Heysham and takes too long for a day trip. Flights are from Manchester, so Cheshire may make most sense.

The problem is not with the clubs in the outlying regions, they accept they have no choice, if you want to play at any standard you need to travel.

It is the neighbours who find that promotion means travel.

The London club that has to go to North Norfolk, or the Devon club travelling to West Cornwall.

There was some discussion of Devon clubs not fulfilling fixtures - but they have a Devon/Cornwall league at level 8.

London Division split London 3 NW (level 8) into London 3 Eastern Counties and London 3 Essex.

And at level 9 Eastern Counties 1 is played in conferences and then playoffs but now includes 2nd XVs.

But at level 7 you can still get long journeys - though this season there was only one Norfolk side.

 

Nope the problem is you don't understand the issue full stop!

 

Question, if the Clubs that have formed the League decided not to form their own league but join the North West Intermediate League you wouldn't have a problem with that?

 

You also seem to be conveniently forgetting that Cumbria formed their own County League (outside of the RFU) 4 years ago which includes a few 1st XVs, did you offer a view on that?

 

County Reps browbeating Clubs? Think you are doing more disservice to the Lancashire Clubs, also small point the Clubs approached the County to help sort things out not the other way round.

 

Simple facts, the issue of long distance travel for Clubs has been an issue since inception of the RFU Leagues, despite over 5 years of trying to sort something that suited the 3 CBs involved, Cumbria had a no point in talking as we want the "Status Quo" view. Cheshire meekly followed Cumbria's lead as it didn't really concern them.

 

Lancashire have reacted to the needs of the Clubs and I believe for  the good of the game at lower league level, if you want to continue down you road of s1agging off Lancashire & its Clubs off then keep going with you head buried so far up your own backside you can't even hear the BS you are talking.

 

As for you wishing that 3 or more Clubs will go out of business. 1. They Won't and 2. Just wondering if Wallasey & Christleton will be competing in the RFC NCC next season because the word on the street is they won't be. That should help make the SLC Leagues look less viable by the minute.

I see.

Yes, I would have had a problem with that - it would have greatly impacted those leagues and pushed out those who are playing in 2 & 3XV teams.

It's not exactly the same thing though is it? Cumbria effectively created their own version of the NOWIRUL leagues. So what?

So at the meeting that took place a number of clubs that wanted more time to consider their options weren't effectively cast out? The Country decided it was going to make a statement and never mind the consequences!

Travel has always been an issue. I'm not sure how it doesn't affect Cheshire, seeing as they have to travel through Lancs to get to Cumbria.  More to do with understanding if teams want to play a decent standard of Rugby they need to travel to places at the same level. Unlike the Lancs Bravado leagues which will see a team that played level 6 playing teams that finished midtable in level 8.

Lancs have reacted in typical Lancs style, toys out the pram. 

And I'm not wishing whatsoever, the regrettable thing is that your going to have some huge mismatches next year. The 1 team clubs will disappear overnight because they just aren't sustainable, like the Wallasey and Christleton that you mention. 

It's another damning indictment of committees playing at running rugby clubs and its high time they were forced to reflect on that rather than being mollycoddled. 

Do you want to give examples of Lancs typical style? No idea what you are talking about.

 

Both Cumbria and Cheshire played Chicken with Lancs and lost. All the two Cs had to do was talk and be pragmatic, instead they chose "we've always done it that way" option no discussion needed. That is why this has happened end of!

 

Yes their is potential for mismatches as there is in any League

 

 

Are you now saying that NOWIRUL Leagues are a bad thing? Pretty sure NOWIRUL would argue the opposite to what you are portraying.  

 

Why would any Club want to go back to the RFU Leagues in its current structure given the Lancs County Leagues gives them all of what they wanted and then some.

 

Eccles got relegated from NLC last season and were thinking of joining LCRUL but they opted to stay in the RFU Leagues, you probably didn't notice but they are in a 8 Team SLC2 now. Can't speak for LSH but maybe they can see that its better to have loved and lived, then love and lose your club.

Quote "Which does bring back a point from before about Lancs browbeating clubs at the meeting they had." Evidence? You provide none because there is none. The meeting held at Wigan had most  of the Lancashire Level 7 and below Clubs in attendance those who elected to join the County League and those still in the RFU Leagues.

I wonder if anyone has considered creating one single structure and bringing the NOWIRUL teams into the ECC. A thought, but one that might provide a solution nonetheless.

Before anyone says it's not possible, as I understand it, this is what goes on in the South West. 

Not sure how asking NOWIRUL to merge in the ECC would work, I doubt NOWIRUL would want it as they are an independent Competition they would lose all their funding and have very little to do with the operation of the merged body as it will come under the auspices of the RFU NCC/ECC. In addition there are Clubs outside of the North area (Glossop have dispensation) involved in NOWIRUL and that would create all kinds of issues on governance and the like. Teams like Newcastle (Staffs) and Hope Valley (Derbys) get away with playing out of their Division at the moment if they come into the RFU NCC/ECC then that creates other issues on Player Registration and regulation something 90% of the Clubs want less of and again need to mention the potential for ever more travel times but for lower XVs. Would Sefton 3rds want to travel to Cumbria, Derbyshire and Staffordshire? and if they didn't are they happy to be docked points and fined!

 

Apparently there was a meeting last night at Southport involving the 6 Lancashire Clubs in NLC and AltKersal and the Cheshire RFU Rep and Chair. They've come up with the plan of dissolving NLC, make a Cumbria only Level 7 League (good luck with that) and new Lancashire/Cheshire Level 7 League....... bit similar to what Lancashire wanted pre-breakaway but was vetoed by Cumbria & Cheshire (that didn't take long for that worm to turn did it 373?) of course this won't happen because Cumbria will still say no way Status Quo - rocking all over the North..............

 

 

 

373 I guess your failed attempt at humour means you know your argument doesn't stand up. Can't beat Facts especially the true facts.

373 if you want to fact check.

 

As I understand it, in a squabble primarily about money and travel distances, community level Lancashire rugby has pulled out of RFU competitions, dragging Cheshire and Cumbria who shared league divisions with Lancashire out with them, and set up their own merit tables. 

Since then various people have been calling each other names, and demonstrating why they don't deserve rugby union.

These are the same complaints that caused RFU to instigate the Adult Game Review in 2015 which came up with a terrible solution to a different porblem that did not exist, while not solving this one.

I think this may answer your question ... http://www.lancashirerugby.co.uk/images/LeagueStatement4_5_18.pdf" rel="nofollow - http://www.lancashirerugby.co.uk/images/LeagueStatement4_5_18.pdf

I have been fixture secretary for 30 years, when we first went to Cumbria 30 years ago everyone wanted to go sometimes we took 2 teams up to Cumbria, times have changed

The wife's and girlfriends today will not put up with what we got away with

Players earnings have more outgoings then I had

Jobs are not 9-5, 7.30 - 4pm anymore

players have to work Saturday's and Sunday's

 We have lost approximately 70 sides in Lancashire and Greater Manchester, we have a NW League for 2.3 and 4's it's really good but now they have gone power mad and chucking sides out in they can't fulfil fixtures due to cry off's above, as usual the bottom sides cop for it

373 wrote: I guarantee about three of these break away teams will fold by the end of the year. No tears will be shed for the Lancs cry babies.

 

Your county reps have sat on there backside's, not even contacted any of the clubs to tell them what's going on, that's from a Cheshire club who are not very happy to the way your county as reacted

What's it got to do with Aldwinians

 

Also I see the proposal put at the Cheshire AGM is basically is Cheshire screwing Cumbria over. Hopefully all the bile and crap thrown at Lancashire recently by Cumbria & friends of Cumbria will now be aimed elsewhere.

 

For Cheshire to propose almost identically the same thing the Lancashire proposed months/years ago beggars belief. So it wasn't ok for the Lancashire Clubs who complained about excessive travel in case of some Clubs for 12+ seasons and want to re-arrange the NW RFU League structure to cut down on travel albeit at the expense of some Cumbria Clubs at Level 7. Cheshire firmly backing Cumbria's veto to that.

 

The moment a Cheshire Club (lets face it 1 Club) are put in the same situation Cheshire come up with another restructure proposal that puts the Lancashire & Cheshire Clubs together and cuts Cumbria adrift, classy Cheshire bravo. Careful you don't accidently call it the Benson & Hedges League from the Fag Packet it was written on!

 

373 you come on here and take a pop at Lancs standing their ground and fighting for its constituent member Clubs but the moment Cheshire has to face one of their own with a similar argument (not the same because they actually haven't done any travelling yet) they fold quicker than a deck chair on New Brighton Beach!

The only question I have is - do we see this move being an advantage to club rugby as a whole? Or just benefiting a few?

There is a serious problem in adult rugby the retaining of players after they gone through colts rugby, the RFU are fully behind the Lancashire teams move to form there own leagues

They have recently stated at a safeguarding meeting that mini and junior rugby is thriving but there is big concern in adult rugby, This is huge concern to Lancashire teams as we are losing sides because of the travelling distances and time, other counties Kent, Cornwall and Gloucestershire are concerned and are watching the situation

mainly they travel once a season, that's acceptable, its going 6/7 times a season that the PLAYER'S object to

 

Correct in terms of still being covered by MADREFs, however the "Lancashire Leagues" will have a lower priority of appointments due to no longer being a part of the RFU structure

Of course it is possible some Vale of Lune player may qualify for Cumbria by birth.

Ramblingref - lancashire leagues obviously rank below NLC and SLC1, do you mean they rank below SLC2  - so equivalent to level 9 and 10.

Do they rank do the Lancashire leagues rank above or below NOWIRUL?

Surely a clubs 2nd XV playing in NOWIRUL 2 South will not get higher priority than their first XV in LL1?

Confused of Cambridge

 

Yes they would rank below SLC2 as RFU League matches will take precedence, compared with the Merit Table that is the "Lancashire League".

 

As the "Lancashire 1" is equivalent to a L7 league, it will be at the top of the Merit Table appointment priority. This is a factor that the clubs were fully aware of and they will therefore potentially be faced with a lower level of referee, dependent on number of matches and availability.

 

No it wouldn't fall below the NOWIRUL Premier as the "Lancashire League" is a 1st Team league, whereas NOWIRUL Premier is 2nd team.

[/QUOTE]

 

Yes they would rank below SLC2 as RFU League matches will take precedence, compared with the Merit Table that is the "Lancashire League".

 

As the "Lancashire 1" is equivalent to a L7 league, it will be at the top of the Merit Table appointment priority. This is a factor that the clubs were fully aware of and they will therefore potentially be faced with a lower level of referee, dependent on number of matches and availability.

So Mr. Henry clubs should adjust their payments to MADREFS accordingly? If a Club pays for the Society to provide a Referee for their 1st XV game shouldn't they have an official of the appropriate standard?

...is this your view or the view of the Society Keiron?

 

Yes they would rank below SLC2 as RFU League matches will take precedence, compared with the Merit Table that is the "Lancashire League".

 

As the "Lancashire 1" is equivalent to a L7 league, it will be at the top of the Merit Table appointment priority. This is a factor that the clubs were fully aware of and they will therefore potentially be faced with a lower level of referee, dependent on number of matches and availability.

So Mr. Henry clubs should adjust their payments to MADREFS accordingly? If a Club pays for the Society to provide a Referee for their 1st XV game shouldn't they have an official of the appropriate standard?

...is this your view or the view of the Society Keiron?

 

No views, I am simply advising that England Rugby (or the RFU as everyone likes to continue to call it) have an appointments priority ladder which dictates in which order matches should be appointed to.

 

No that's definitely not what it is.

 

I believe the hope of those teams that are forming the "Lancashire Leagues" is that they will provide more competitive matches with less travelling. That said, I am led to believe that the number of teams taking part has reduced from the original 24 now to only 19.

Lancashire league fixtures released - twenty teams listed - so 18 league fixtures.

http://files.pitchero.com/counties/19/1529053849.pdf" rel="nofollow - Premier league

http://files.pitchero.com/counties/19/1529053924.pdf" rel="nofollow - 1st Division

The cup and shield seem to be being played in 3 groups of 3 with the tenth side getting a bye.

I assume the pool winners and the sides with byes (Alsemians and North Manchester0 go through to semi finals.

Also the final (until the next one) structure of the North division leagues is:

 

I understand more than one Club have lodged appeals at the League they've been placed in. If the appeals are upheld then expect changes...........of course that could mean more appeals because if Team A(K) win their appeal and move leagues (say to SLC1)  then someone has to move out of that League to (NLC) unless of course they go for 15 and 13 Team Leagues!

 

Additionally in SLC1 you have teams that just survived in Level 8 coming up against Teams fresh from Level 6 or top end of Level 7.

 

All of this could have been avoided if Cumbria & Cheshire had bothered to get round a table and discuss things, the Lancashire Clubs ran out of patience as both Cumbria & Cheshire said.........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkT0BtfOB-M" rel="nofollow - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkT0BtfOB-M

http://www.cheshirerfu.co.uk/2018/06/18/cheshire-rfu-appeal/